Baby Hitler

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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby SLO - 101 » Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:13 pm

xander wrote:Why can't it be both things? Whenever someone mentions Hitler, do we also need to discuss Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao?


Well if you talk about the magnitude of something you usually mention the worst of the worst at the begining not something third worst at the start. Now unless your some type of a facebook like hooker who is playing on emotions and believes of the wider (usually unknowing) crowd you will understand what im saying. If Mao Zedong was in a war with USA and China lost he would be portrayed the same way Adolf was portrayed. The same way would happen if operation Unthinkable acctualy happend and the Russians lost or vice versia. Also there is a thing called winners justice where they condem stuff that one side did. But because nobody invaded and won Russia or China so that didnt happen and if there was anything it was just brushed away. Adolf was just the poor sap who bit off more than he could chew so they tarnished his repotation. But if he would have won the war he would be portrayed like the greatest world leader there ever exsisted.

xander wrote:You first.


Read the message above. And if i was saying stuff conected with propaganda i would be hureling insults at you faster than Kim Jong un eating a sandwitch.
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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby xander » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:34 pm

SLO - 101 wrote:Well if you talk about the magnitude of something you usually mention the worst of the worst at the begining not something third worst at the start.

This assumes that there is a meaningful and objective way of ranking how "bad" a historical figure is or was. Your entire tirade is built on a faulty premise.

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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby Colytic » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:08 am

UNITEDAIR wrote:You realize that changing the tiniest of history will almost certainly mean you will not exist.


Not necessarily. But in this case, that was not the point of the thought experiment since it's not a real choice any of us is actually facing.
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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby UNITEDAIR » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:57 am

This discussion is stupid. No one is arguing about the utilitarianism of killing one baby to save 60 million or whatever. In perfect abstraction sure why not. But no one knows what would happen to history if you changed events. Slo-101 describes one possible way of events, but just one out of infinite. And no killing hitler would not stagnate technology. There is no way to predict what may or may or happen. Also, you cannot compare atrocities to diminish or enhance it. It is irrelevant if someone killed more people somewhere or somewhen.
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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby General Ivan » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:06 am

UNITEDAIR wrote:This discussion is stupid. No one is arguing about the utilitarianism of killing one baby to save 60 million or whatever. In perfect abstraction sure why not. But no one knows what would happen to history if you changed events. Slo-101 describes one possible way of events, but just one out of infinite. And no killing hitler would not stagnate technology. There is no way to predict what may or may or happen. Also, you cannot compare atrocities to diminish or enhance it. It is irrelevant if someone killed more people somewhere or somewhen.


This.

Why dwell on matters which (even though considered some of the most traumatic events in recent times by most) happened 70 years ago (and i can say the same thing about that pointless nuclear post of earlier)? As much as we can always ponder on the "What ifs?" on even the most rudimentary of things, i think we shouldn't dwell on these matters too much as things can end up being exaggerated.

We could all just sit here like a bunch of armchair generals and debate over the many possible scenarios of "What happened if we removed so-so from our timeline?" but we would probably end up with a runaway thought train full of abstract ideas...so why bother?

As for the original question itself on the topic: If i was there myself in that moment. No, i would not kill him, even if it means at the expense of my Mother's side of the family. Why? Because i am basically condemning him for the apparent atrocities he has yet to commit. At the end of the day, i also remind myself
that he, like most of us here, were once a simpleton child with a mother and father. A child which inevitably, in some form or another in all of us, becomes corrupt in some manner.

Even if you were to remove him, you must remember that it wasn't just HIM that played an important role in the Nazi Party. There was Goebbels, Goering, Himmler, Eichmann, Hans Frank, Ernst Röhm (during their rise), Albert Speer, along with many other less known influential members. Then there are other factors outside of the regime altogether such as post WW1. If Germany won that war would Nazism have been averted or just delayed? Then there is the Soviet Union, even if Nazism never came about, would Stalin have initiated an alternate WW2 by attempting to annex all of Europe in the name of "Socialism" (see how i am starting to have the runaway train of thought here)?

In the end...if you ask me, i would just leave it to historians to debate over such matters while i focus on the problems that matter to me at hand. No use dwelling on events that happened 70 years ago (as much as i recognize that such events played a big part in shaping the world today).
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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby trickser » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:49 am

The OP is absolutly not about Hitler, but about baby killing ...

Gimme a sec...

The OP is about imagining the adventures of chrononautic.
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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby DTNC Vicious » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:54 am

Goddamn you mofos gotta overthink everything. Can't just answer my question yes or no!? Lol There is no option C, D, E to my question, there is no switching Hitlers mind or his childhood or profession, nothing. You go back in time knowing this baby will grow up to do exactly what we know today, nothing less nothing more but what exactly happened. Do you kill baby hitler, yes or no? Please respond below with "Yes" or "No" with a SMALL explanation.

Mine is YES, I would be able to live with myself after doing it...and no I'm not cool with babies being killed lol obviously but this is a unique situation.
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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby SLO - 101 » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:18 am

xander wrote:This assumes that there is a meaningful and objective way of ranking how "bad" a historical figure is or was. Your entire tirade is built on a faulty premise.


Well whats worse a robbery where 300€ was stolen? Or a robbery where 3000€ was stolen or a robbery where 3000000€ was stolen? You tell me. The media will make a bigger fuss about the largest robbery and also the conviction will be the harshest. Now about the atroceties that this leaders have done would roughly be similar based on that scale. But because hitler bit of more than he could chew he was beaten and they tarnished his image.

DTNC Vicious wrote:Goddamn you mofos gotta overthink everything. Can't just answer my question yes or no!?


If you have a debate you go thrugh it sisthematicaly not just tuch one side and totaly forget the other one.

UNITEDAIR wrote:This discussion is stupid. No one is arguing about the utilitarianism of killing one baby to save 60 million or whatever. In perfect abstraction sure why not. But no one knows what would happen to history if you changed events. Slo-101 describes one possible way of events, but just one out of infinite. And no killing hitler would not stagnate technology. There is no way to predict what may or may or happen. Also, you cannot compare atrocities to diminish or enhance it. It is irrelevant if someone killed more people somewhere or somewhen.


Technology would be a few years behind because 1) Rocket technology would be a years behind becasue the germans did create the first cruise missile after all (you haveto get satelites to space). 2) The british secrate technology called RADAR probably wouldnt be used that mutch and it would only be tested because there would be no germany bombers and the list goes on.

Basicly as the theory goes there are a infinite number of parrarel universes and evry thing you do has a infinite number of variations so there is a infinite number of posibilities. However most likely Stalin would probabyl try to anex EU like General Ivan said if hitler was dead and the comunist party in germany at the time Hitler rose to power was relatively strong so you know what woudl folow.
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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby trickser » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:36 pm

DTNC Vicious wrote:Please respond below with "Yes" or "No" with a SMALL explanation.

No.
Baby Hitler is probably cute. I wanna trust my instincts and not have to overrule them with my ratio*, I just wanna feel like a human.


Sincerely, your egomanic forumnaut trickser.

*rationality, translation issue
Last edited by trickser on Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby Colytic » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:31 pm

Hmm. I was viewing things in a bubble before. We have no idea what would have happened instead, and it might not be better.

I abstain ;)
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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby DTNC Vicious » Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:04 pm

trickser wrote:
DTNC Vicious wrote:Please respond below with "Yes" or "No" with a SMALL explanation.

I just wanna feel like a human.



And thats how the people stuffed into cattle cars and shipped off to die wanted to feel also but they weren't treated like humans. This devil baby shouldn't get a chance to live out his master plan.
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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby trickser » Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:51 pm

Crap, what did I do?

Can I change my mind? Can I kill a baby right now? I knew 1 of the answers was bullshit. Sheeet.
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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby DTNC Vicious » Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:58 pm

See what you've done ! You have altered history by letting that devil
Spawn survive :roll:
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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby UNITEDAIR » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:37 pm

What a silly notion to think of a baby as a devil. As if people are born intrinsically evil. That's laughable. Babies are hardly sentient. No I wouldn't kill a baby. Someone would fill the vacuum. What about all the babies that could grow up to be mass murderers? Kill them too? In which time line? You wouldn't make history better or worse, just different. Speculate all you want, it doesn't matter. Hitler also probably ended up championing the Jewish cause more than anyone and here's why: No one will argue that the deaths of six million Jews was not a terrible thing - but many people died in the history of humanity, most of which with much worse end results. For starters, the Jewish people got their own state, Israel, which has very strong support despite some of their actions. Germany could not possibly stand against Israel without being sternly reminded of their past crimes. In fact the Holocaust's existence is a strong factor in preventing anti-semitic sentiments in the western world, as Jews need only point to the Holocaust as a gruesome example of what this kind of hatred leads to. In fact, many minorities can use the Holocaust as an example and a reminder to practice tolerance. The long lasting impact of the Holocaust on society - especially in Germany - has changed it to the better by quite a bit. There wouldn't have been a better way to have the same impact on the world.
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Re: Baby Hitler

Postby DTNC Vicious » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:10 pm

UNITEDAIR wrote:What a silly notion to think of a baby as a devil. As if people are born intrinsically evil.


I disagree with that, there are some genes proven by scientists that can cause rage and violence, to say there is no genetic links to cause an individual to do certain nasty things is wrong. On the other side I know nature & nurture has an obvious effect on how some people act. But back to my main point, look up the Biological Trait Theories.

As criminology was my major I spent much time looking over almost every major serial killer and the reasons for their actions. The Biological Trait Theories, Psychodynamic theory, and the Organized/Disorganized theory all attempt to explain the inexplicable actions of serial killers. The biological trait theories apply as there is great emphasis on infancy and childhood emotional growth. The psychodynamic theory applies as well as these men display actions that seem to be driven by their id personality. Lastly, the organized/disorganized theory attempts to conclude personality and behavioral characteristics from crime scene investigation. Yes, I know Hitler wasn't a serial killer but I would classify him as evil like the rest of these people.

edit: I hate talking about genetics and ethics... always a annoying subject if you go from the scientific side or religious side.......

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