Hiroshima and Nagasaki

General discussion about Defcon

Moderator: Defcon moderators

Baton
level0
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:00 am

Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Baton » Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:24 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bo ... d_Nagasaki

Today we remember those who lost their lives due to nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki performed by United States of America.
DTNC Vicious
Site Admin
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:48 am
Location: North of the Wall
Contact:

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby DTNC Vicious » Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:44 pm

When I think of the men who died beating on the bulwarks of sunken battleships for help in Pearl Harbor my concern for Hiroshima and Nagasaki hits -10.

RIP to the civilians who died though.
User avatar
Mr.Megadeath
level2
level2
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:46 pm
Location: New York

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Mr.Megadeath » Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:10 pm

DTNC Vicious wrote:When I think of the men who died beating on the bulwarks of sunken battleships for help in Pearl Harbor my concern for Hiroshima and Nagasaki hits -10.

\

Don't forget the Bataan Death March too.
User avatar
Baton101
level4
level4
Posts: 695
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:53 am
Location: Middle earth

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Baton101 » Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:53 pm

DTNC Vicious wrote:When I think of the men who died beating on the bulwarks of sunken battleships for help in Pearl Harbor my concern for Hiroshima and Nagasaki hits -10.

RIP to the civilians who died though.


At Pearl Harbor died 2,008 soldiers.
At Hiroshima: 146,000 civilians killed, 20,000+ soldiers killed,
At Nagasaki:80,000 civilians killed, 9,000 soldiers killed
And who knows how many died from radiation years after...(Updated annually on the anniversaries of the bombings, as of August 2014 the memorials record the names of more than 450,000)

Clearly your logic and common sense is in big question.
User avatar
kudayta
Introversion Staff
Introversion Staff
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby kudayta » Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:01 pm

The Japanese killed over 5 million civilians (some estimates are much higher) in WWII, they were hardly innocent victims. While the use of atomic weapons at the end of the war is controversial at best, it's not as if they didn't pick a fight in the Pacific or were incapable of ruthlessly defending themselves in the months prior to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
User avatar
Baton101
level4
level4
Posts: 695
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:53 am
Location: Middle earth

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Baton101 » Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:06 pm

kudayta wrote:While the use of atomic weapons at the end of the war is controversial at best


Using nuclear bombs on civilians(man, womens, childrens, old ones..) is evil. (shame I need to tell you this)
User avatar
kudayta
Introversion Staff
Introversion Staff
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby kudayta » Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:10 pm

Well, looks like Baton is still incapable of rational discussion.
User avatar
xander
level5
level5
Posts: 16869
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:41 pm
Location: Highland, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby xander » Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:19 pm

kudayta wrote:The Japanese killed over 5 million civilians (some estimates are much higher) in WWII, they were hardly innocent victims. While the use of atomic weapons at the end of the war is controversial at best, it's not as if they didn't pick a fight in the Pacific or were incapable of ruthlessly defending themselves in the months prior to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

"The Japanese did awful things during WWII, therefore the awful things that were done to them are entirely justified." :roll:

If you want to make the argument that the US was justified in dropping atomic bombs on civilian targets, there are some moderately convincing arguments that can be made: the half a million civilian casualties were in exchange for a similar (or greater) number of allied (military) losses in an extended war; it was necessary to cow the Japanese before Stalin invaded; the bombs were dropped on military targets, but the Japanese intentionally used civilians are shields and the US called their bluff; etc, etc, etc. I don't agree with those arguments (and I doubt that you could make an argument that I would agree with, though I am open to having my mind changed), but a tu quoque? Really?

xander
User avatar
kudayta
Introversion Staff
Introversion Staff
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby kudayta » Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:20 pm

That's not at all what I said xander. Don't make use of straw men arguments.
User avatar
Colytic
Site Admin
Posts: 837
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:24 pm
Location: UK

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Colytic » Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:23 pm

tu quoque is your favourite damn phrase, xander.
User avatar
xander
level5
level5
Posts: 16869
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:41 pm
Location: Highland, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby xander » Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:25 pm

kudayta wrote:That's not at all what I said xander. Don't make use of straw men arguments.

Then maybe you could clarify your argument. Because it looks to me that Baton gave some statistics about the bombings (noting that mostly civilians were killed by the US bombs, compared to mostly military personal killed at Pearl Harbor), and you replied by noting that the Japanese were "not entirely innocent". Given that this thread is about the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it gives the appearance that you are arguing that the bombings were justified because of the civilian casualties inflicted by the Japanese. If that was not your point, then what was?

xander
DTNC Vicious
Site Admin
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:48 am
Location: North of the Wall
Contact:

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby DTNC Vicious » Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:35 pm

Image
User avatar
kudayta
Introversion Staff
Introversion Staff
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby kudayta » Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:40 pm

Maybe you could read what I wrote xander. My argument is very clear. I'm stating that Baton had once again cherry picked data to suit his own pre-conceived notions, I'm stating that the use of atomic weapons was (and remains) controversial and I'm stating the Imperial Japanese started the war in the first place.

To be clear, the use of atomic weapons was a horrible act, of course. But it was not any more reprehensible than the firebombings of Tokyo or Dresden, or the slaughter of Jewish and Chinese civilians, or the widespread rape and sexual assaults that all too often follow in the footsteps of organized violence.

Furthermore, the full effects of atomic weaponry were not (and probably could not have been) known to a Missouri haberdasher who had not even been elected to the office of the Presidency at the close of the war.

So in the future, instead of trying to "read between the lines" of what I've said, try to just stick to what I've said.
User avatar
Mr.Megadeath
level2
level2
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:46 pm
Location: New York

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Mr.Megadeath » Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:43 pm

Image
User avatar
Endless
level5
level5
Posts: 1343
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Endless » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:21 am

I'll just drop this here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bo ... d_Nagasaki

So upwards of 10,000,000 kills by the Japanese in WWII versus an estimated total of 246,000 by the atomic bombs dropped by the U.S. Obviously, there were other conflicts that attribute to the death toll for the U.S. (Iwo Jima, tokyo bombing, etc...) so we'll tack on another 1,000,000 just to be sure.

So death toll, and reasons for the atomic bomb drops put the US at 1,246,000 versus 10,000,000 by the Japanese. I'll add your 250,000 for radiation to the death toll from the bombs.

That puts us at roughly a final total of 1,496,000 versus 10,000,000. I'll take dropping the atomic bombs in that situation any day.

Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests