I love the 80's

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Feud
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I love the 80's

Postby Feud » Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:35 pm

I admit that I missed most of the cold war. I was seven years old or so when the Soviet Union collapsed, though it wasn't for several more years until it sunk in that Russia was no longer "the enemy".

I now study political science in college, and I've had a personal interest in Russia for several years. Watching it slip back towards authoritarianism and soviet era hardline policies has been both frightening and interesting. Many of you have probably already read this article, but since this is the DEFCON forum, and since it does have to do with nuclear war, I figured I would post it here.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/04/russia.putin.ap/index.html

So I was wondering what the Europeans thought about it, as well as what any Russian players might think about it. Does it concern you much, or is it no big deal? Is it only a big deal in America or are you guys talkign about it as well?
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Postby PsychicKid » Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:58 pm

Not a big deal I don't think. All it would be doing is keeping the nuclear balance. An anti-missle defense system would upset the policy of MAD, which so far has worked pretty well. Afterall we're still here aren't we? Even though this missle defense systems is meant for Iran, it still upsets the balance between the US and Russia. Even though we're more or less on friendly terms, we still have several hundred nuclear weapons pointed at each other.

It's like my history teacher said. Nobody has their finger on the trigger, but the trigger is well within reach, and the gun is fully loaded.
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Postby torig » Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:55 pm

PsychicKid wrote: Even though this missle defense systems is meant for Iran


:shock:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/276875/bi ... the_world/
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Postby PsychicKid » Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:32 pm

With something like "Bill Hicks" in the URL, I abstain from clicking.
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Postby kb5zht » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:31 am

Heh, my understand is that right now all icbm's on both sides are now, for saftey reasons, aimed at the middle of the pacific ocean. This I guess simply safegaurds against the "lone mad general" scenario of 1 missile being launched.

I grew up in the middle of the cold war, where we actually still had "duck and cover" drills in gradeschool (as though crawling underneath a small schoolhouse desk would be protection against a 500kt warhead going off overhead).

MAD kept the peace for years- not represented in defcon as every single nuclear silo doubles as an ABM system. In reality, the salt II treaty, which was the essence of M.A.D., limited both the United States and the Soviet Union to 1 ABM site, which could contain no more than 100 antiballistic missles.... and furthermore, this 1 site could only safegaurd a nuclear missle silo, NOT a city (believe it or not... but it was MAD after all). The United States never built one, while the Soviet Union did... and it was located, as fate would have it, to defend an ICBM installation that was curiously close to Moscow.
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Postby Peace and Love » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:51 am

I wasn't alive in the 80's (born 1990) but that's besides the point X)



I don't think another nuclear war is possible unless absolute idealistic radicals control nukes. As long as intelligent sensible leaders or at least leaders with checks on their power hold nukes, then they'll largely be used as bargaining tools. Personally that's why I think most nations seek to gain nukes, not to destroy the world but to have more say when trying to get something internationally. The real scare is extremists (crazy people) as it's always been.

<<all my opinion btw ^__^>>
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Postby xander » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:48 am

Peace and Love wrote:I wasn't alive in the 80's (born 1990) but that's besides the point X)

O_o

This board is being overrun by children!

xander
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KingAl
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Postby KingAl » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:49 am

xander wrote:
Peace and Love wrote:I wasn't alive in the 80's (born 1990) but that's besides the point X)

O_o

This board is being overrun by child!

xander


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Postby xander » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:02 am

KingAl wrote:
xander wrote:
Peace and Love wrote:I wasn't alive in the 80's (born 1990) but that's besides the point X)

O_o

This board is being overrun by child!

xander


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If there is one, there must be more. Children are like cockroaches. I should know -- I work with them every day. ;)

xander
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Postby Peace and Love » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:33 am

KingAl wrote:
xander wrote:
Peace and Love wrote:I wasn't alive in the 80's (born 1990) but that's besides the point X)

O_o

This board is being overrun by child!

xander


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lmao
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Postby tl8 » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:18 am

Watch what you say xander that 'Child' beat Ace. :D

I couldn't help her win but I'd be a pawn in her strategy. (Being the same age)

I see another Feud brewing.

TL8
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Postby Xarlaxas » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:53 am

xander wrote:O_o

This board is being overrun by children!

xander


I am also one of those born in the good old year of 1990, I guess 17 is technically still a child though I am often irked by those who call me such, much to their amusement. ^^;

On topic: I personally find the idea of MAD rather, well, mad though I can see that it has worked, with a few awkward moments however. America seems to be very fond of these Anti-missile defenses, I believe there's a rather large amount on the subject in the beliefs of the Project for the New American Century, the problem with the Americans having a way to shoot down nukes with other nations unable to would give America dominance over anywhere it could hit, as no-one would be able to hit them back, one can only hope that they wouldn't actually nuke anywhere again, but you never know.
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Postby caranthir.pkk » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:00 am

This missile shield will not be effective in stopping a Russian launch at the United States, not for the next twenty years that is. They're just comparing schlongs to see who comes up short, no need to worry.
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Postby Masaq » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:57 pm

It's completely arbituary anyway. Nukes can be retargetted within a matter of minutes- Russia has always had the capability to nuke the hell out of Europe within a very short while if it so chose to even since Glasnost, the end of the Cold War and the collapse of the USSR.

What makes it relevant is the symbolism of explicitly informing the world that you HAVE re-targetted nukes in a certain direction, or that you've redirected them in another way. It's not the targetting that's really changed over the past fortnight, it's the willingness of Russia (and more specifically, Putin) to openly stand up and say "We don't agree with this, and we want to change things.". America's geopolitical dominance was challenged, and largely sucessfully too.

The other worrying development was the final agreement that Putin gave to Bush to "allow" the USA to use Azabajhan soil to place part of the new defense system on. Last time I checked, they were a seperate independant nation- who presumeably would rather like some free will in the matter. Boils back down to Russia holding most of the Aces in Europe and the Near East with regard to natural gas supplies, I guess - the same thing that makes keeping Russia happy important to Europe and the USA far more than Putin's nuclear weapons do.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:31 pm

tl8 wrote:Watch what you say xander that 'Child' beat Ace. :D

I couldn't help her win but I'd be a pawn in her strategy. (Being the same age)

I see another Feud brewing.

TL8

Well, there's only one Feud (unless he's got a twin) and even a broke clock is right twice a day. :wink:
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast...

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