Defcon is NOT leaked./?

General discussion about Defcon

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Maurs
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Postby Maurs » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:31 am

Someone following non-consequentialist natural law style ethics would probably say that it is immoral because of rule of law, property rights, that kind of thing. An act utilitarian would probably say that it is moral because downloading it generates utility in the form of your pleasure while not creating any disutility (although that only applies to your download; by the nature of bittorrent, you are uploading to entities who you have no control over. They may not have bought it and may not intend to buy it. If that is so, you could be producing disutility of any quantity). Rule utilitarianism is a little more complicated and I am less familiar with it; I'm not sure what exact rule you might be following in downloading an illegal copy vs. not doing so, although I would think that the rule "You should follow the license you agree to even when you do not want to" would produce more utility than "You should disregard your license agreement if you can get an illegal copy." If you are a nihilist than, of course, downloading illegal is perfectly moral because eh whatever.
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Postby N0ught » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:34 am

... And according to the liberals, it causes cancer.

:lol:
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Postby WNivek » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:38 am

My take on the ethics issue

If IV wanted the review version to be available to people who pre-order, they would have made it available.
IV did not make it available
Therefor, IV didn't want it available.

To acquire the leaked copy is to willfully violate IV's wishes

IV Have done, and are doing, nothing wrong or unethical. Their wishes are quite reasonable. There are no extenuating circumstances to warrent violating their wishes.

Were I in their spot, I would want people to respect my wishes, and I highly doubt there's anyone in the world would WOULD want their wishes violated.

It follows that it is unethical to violate IV's wishes.
IV wishes people not to pirate their game
It is unethical to pirate IV's game.
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Postby Missile Command Kid » Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:33 am

WNivek wrote:My take on the ethics issue

If IV wanted the review version to be available to people who pre-order, they would have made it available.
IV did not make it available
Therefor, IV didn't want it available.

To acquire the leaked copy is to willfully violate IV's wishes


Ah, but you're assuming that violating somebody's "wishes" is unethical behaviour. Hyperbolic example: if I wanted you to cheat on an exam, and you didn't, would not cheating on the exam be unethical? Or, say Jane sends an email to Bob, but then calls him and tells him not to open it, as she changed her mind about letting him read the contents. Would it be unethical for him to go ahead and read the email?
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Postby estel » Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:24 am

Yes, it would. But that's besides the point - IV are the owners of the IP and their wishes are, as so eloquently stated "reasonable". What is "ethical" will never be clearly defined, but I don't think that piracy here is ethical...
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Postby rowenlemmings » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:11 am

Ethics are a touchy subject.

Morals are a touchy subject.

International Law is one of the most complicated subjects on the planet.

In this case, IV owns something. Even if you have bought something, you are not acquiring it in a strictly "good" sense. It's like going into a department store, laying down $19.99USD on the counter, then taking a shirt worth that exact amount and running out the store without saying a word.

The worst thing that can happen with downloading the "illegal" copy is this:
IV says they have not and will not support this copy, and that anyone having the Review-1 copy of the game will be IP-banned from their servers, because they attempted to connect to them using a modified version of the game. This is clearly within their rights, as they own the server that hosts the tracker, and can ban anyone with or without reason from using it.

The worst thing that can happen from NOT downloading the "illegal" copy is this:
...You have to wait 'till Friday.

Use your head. If you'd like to "split a hair" as was discussed earlier and try to find some loophole in your country's law, then claim it should be held over the laws of the country that sold you the product, it's your head. However, IV does not need a reason to ban you from using their tracker, since they own it, they pay for the bandwidth it uses, and even if it's legal in your country for you to download and play the Review-1 copy, IV doesn't like it. That being said, they can ban you for any number of reasons, such as suspected cheating, modifying a client, etc etc, that may or may not be true, or could simply ban you for no reason at all, because they said so.

Pros of downloading early: you get the game early.
Cons of downloading early: you run the very real risk of being banned, if not prosecuted for using a pre-release version of the game without signing an NDA or paying for that version of the game.

Pros of waiting: you get to anticipate it all week and open it like an xmas present on Friday
Cons of waiting: you get to anticipate it all week and open it like an xmas present on Friday =).

Weigh the pros and cons yourself. I already pre-ordered, and though it's MORE than slightly tempting, I will not be using the torrent to see the game early. I assume the full version will be much better than the review-1 version, and will be that much sweeter for waiting.

For all you who download and play the Review-1 copy, if you get banned, don't complain, you were warned.
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Postby Wasgood » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:14 am

Well youve convinced me not to download.
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Postby kneecaps » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:26 am

Legal issues aside for a moment. A game designed for multiplayer play that you cannot play online is totally worthless.

How many people play Counterstrike (insert another popular online game here) on their own against bots 24/7?

If everybody who has preordred Defcon has been playing about with the review/p2p/leaked(whatever) version for a week before release it makes no net difference to the release (unless many people decide they don't like what they see based on the pre-release version, NOT LIKELY i bet).

Defcon is a multiplayer game pure and simple, its about cunning, tenacity and machiavellian double dealing....take that away by not playing multiplayer and you have nothing.

Its like chess with nobody to play with.

P.S: Buy it! Support Introversion!
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Postby Cossack » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:00 pm

Just my 2 cents for all the scaremongers...

Filesharing is illegal in the US and EU fullstop, however millions still use software like bit torrent. So far criminal law has only been used against big groups of pirates who created and distributed warez or groups of individuals who have put thousands of files on the net. Its mainly the Music Industry that take individuals to court, been lots of cases in US, the ones in Europe seem to be groups of people mainly or individuals sharing tens of thousands of files.

It would be impractical and impossible take everybody to court for share files. I also doubt it would be in the spirit of the law to prosecute an individual for sharing the odd file. However IV could still technically take you to court themselves for infringing copyright. Who knows maybe they decide to make an example out of you. That said there's no guarantee IV would win and court cases cost money. I know the US law states that there does not have to be any financial gain for an offence to be committed. This would apply to filesharing in general where no money has changed hands between anyone. But if you actually pre-ordered the game then IV would be the ones making the financial gain so I'm not sure what that would throw up in a court room!?

As for people playing the review version there's nothing illegal about that either in the EU or US, it's the downloading part that is illegal. Although you actually playing the game prior to release is some evidence that you downloaded it, but its not conclusive. IV could ban IP's but its not really much more than an inconveniance as majority of people have dynamic IP's anyway so why would they bother until after release. I think it's more likely IV's main concern will be after release when people could be using the review version or hacked release version of the game instead of buying it thus denying IV revenue.

P.S. I'm not trying to condone downloading (which is illegal in the US and EU) the review version and playing it. Just making people aware of possible consequences instead of some the sweeping statements made by the scaremongers.
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Postby alphager » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:00 pm

Cossack wrote:As for people playing the review version there's nothing illegal about that either in the EU or US, it's the downloading part that is illegal.

You should read up on your laws.
Using software for which you have no license is illegal. The act of downloading it is also illegal. Uploading it is also illegal.
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Postby Montyphy » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:45 pm

Cossack wrote:Filesharing is illegal in the US and EU fullstop...


No its not. Filesharing of protected (copyright, intellectual property or similar) material is illegal, however, it is quite legal to download open source material or anything that has no form of protection. In fact, most Linux distros can, and are encouraged to be, downloaded through p2p networks. Also, I believe (but not certain), that as a UK resident and TV license payer that it is legal for me to download any BBC created content.
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Postby UsF » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:24 pm

I have two things on my mind right now:

First is, that the game looks great and it appears that it will be a hit. People should support games like this, especially if they are that cheap.

Second, I cant say that I do not like the idea of filesharing. Point is, that you get the possibility to try out software, that would cost you good money and you would just find out, that you bought a piece of crap (maybe because of certain security measures/copy protections, maybe because of bugs, etc.).

Appereantly IMO there are three big groups of people:
-people that will never use filesharing and buy everything legally
-people that will never buy anything legally and only use filesharing, no matter how good the product is
-people that will use filesharing and buy games they like

Maybe there are people that would like to buy games, but cant, because of financial reasons, but I think that those three groups are the most important.
I myself like to preview/review (whats the right word in this situation?) a product in whole, before I buy it. It also needs to have some points, before I am willing to buy it
-replayability
-stability
-worth its money/not too expense -> wait a year

There are demos but those are mostly limited in gameplay, so you cannot see the whole thing you would be buying.
Also, there are video game rental stores, but those cost money as well, which could be easily saved to spend on a few games in whole, rather than testing alot games a short time.

I myself like to see the whole, play it for a while and when I say to myself: "Yes, that is the game I want", I will buy it. This involves methods like borrowing it from a friend, etc. I dont see any reason, how I hurt someone. People, who intend to buy a good game, will buy it. People, who will never buy a game, will never buy any and just get their stuff in other ways. Filesharing keep both classes of people.
I think that people that preordered the game and downloaded the leaked, dont really feel bad about it, they are just so damn excited, which is also because IV does give so little information on their progress. People who do not care about IV or their software, will download it, try it, maybe like it and not be able to play online ever, because they have no key and therefor miss a great feature of the game anyway.

And about the legal issue. There are alot of things that are illegal or legal, but I myself have to decide, what I will do, even if I face the consequences. I do appreciate and support filesharing. I also support the games and developers I like and punish the others with not buying it or even giving up on downloading/trying their products, because their software is buggy, crappy or does simply not interest me. We are not made out of money. I am willing to spend cash, but can't spend limitless. Therefor filesharing helps myself to decide.

I do not support people, that only download.
Also I am aware of the legal situation of what I am doing.

Hmeh, I wrote so much stuff, I wonder if it is understandable.
By the way, there are so many posts about piracy lately, I wasn't able to read all the threads and topics, sorry, if something similar has already been stated, but I just wanted to give people that are totally against filesharing an understanding of why SOME! of us do it. Of course, there are always people that are exploiting things like these features.

P.S. I have not downloaded Defcon yet, since it would be like a demo or an unfinished beta and not give me the impression I need to consider buying it. Is there any way to buy it via paypal? Steam only has credit card purchasing options.

Please do not kill me. And ask, if something is not readable. :wink:
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Postby estel » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:27 pm

Yes, you can buy with paypal from IV's Store.
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Montyphy
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Postby Montyphy » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:34 pm

@UsF, you forgot to mention the people who illegally download stuff simply because its impossible to get legal copies i.e Home of the Underdogs. :P
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Postby Lukasek79 » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:44 pm

thing is that playing illegally downloaded game/program etc might be bad thing in ethical or moral sense yet well personally i dont loose sleep about it what is definietly wrong is not paying for such product.. but since IV made defcon for sale i dont think there is stealing involved ..i mean important thing is to pay IV authors for their job ... apart from this.. idont know i dont see problem with getting it via torrent or even copying it from your friend..

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