Defcon is NOT leaked./?

General discussion about Defcon

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Hoxe
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Postby Hoxe » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:08 pm

I just wanted to let you know that the most of this "IV supports it" crap came from this part of an interview with IV

" You can't stop peer-to-peer file sharing. So the best route to combat it is to subvert it, and turn it around to your advantage. For example, we will release a version of our game that looks like it's been hacked at the same time as a pirate version gets out - usually a couple of days after release.

Our version, which is modified, repackaged and distributed by our user community of around 1000 active participants, looks like the real game, but is in fact a demo. After the third time of downloading the demo, the peer-to-peer user will be very, very frustrated, and will do one of two things; give up or buy the game from us. We subverted the Bit Torrent network for Darwinia very successfully this way, and to a lesser extent eMule / eDonkey."
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Postby kawsper » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:46 pm

So just thought I'd let all you people with the illegal leaked version know, don't be surprised if you can't play with everyone else with
your bought copy when release day comes. For those of you guys who are holding out and waiting for release day, have fun!


Mmm.. If you really believe this is the case, you are dumb :twisted: :roll:. If you think IV will ban all that tries to connect to the metaserver with review-1, and disable all keys that tries to log on with the same IP after the release, that doesnt make you smarter. Dynamic IP? And do you really think that IV wants to punish some of those filesharers that actually went and bought the game (And supported them)?
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Postby FalleN » Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:00 pm

Did I say they were going to ban ALL of them? Don't think I did. But you'd be a fool to think there won't be any of them banned. And I never said that people wouldnt be able to get around it, but for the most part, most people who download games like this aren't as persistent or as intelligent and some software pirates out there.
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Postby backdoor2 » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:16 am

Greetings from Germany,

first of all: sorry for my language skills, but I think most readers wouldn´t apreciate a post in german ;)

I´ve allready preordered Defcon through Steam, because I liked the thought that Defcon is inspired by "Wargames" - the cult-classic film from 1983, which once was one of the first "hacker"-films (btw Wargames itself was inspired by the famous NORAD-hack). (I think most of young guys don´t understand, why that film once was a blockbuster, but the storyline is in hole an expression of the nuclear fear during the Cold-War. To me, someone who has lived near the border to East Germany, was in the first line of a nuclear Worldwar III and saw lots of times russian bombers above his head, whose pilots lost their way and were escorted back to the territory of the Warsaw Pact by german TORNADO fighter jets, this film is a milestone in film history.)

(back to topic:) In Germany it´s lawfully that you copy something that you have legally purchased (I´m not sure, but I think up to 7 copies), no matter which source. So it isn´t unlawful to download this version from the (torrent) net to start playing it. I´ve done and I think most of the stuff is great (I think there are two bad points: 1st) you cannot sneak your subs around the poles - 2nd) some major cities are misplaced - the maker of IV who draw the cities on the map must be someone, who got an E in geographic^^). But it makes a lot of fun, to burn George W.´s ass in the White House with some sneaky subs^^.

So I think, IV has no damage with that "pirate version". A lot of guys will order it after the "training" in single-player-mode (meanwhile the 5 CPU-Opponents are quite boring to me and I´m hot to play against real opponents on release-day :twisted: ).

Montyphy wrote:

Montyphy wrote:Listen and listen good. THE VERSION YOU SEE ON TORRENT SITES AND HOSTING SITES IS AN ILLEGALLY LEAKED VERSION WHICH IS NOT BEING DISTRIBUTED WITH ANY BLESSING FROM INTROVERSION. DISTRIBUTING THE GAME IS ILLEGAL. OWNING A COPY AND PLAYING THIS VERSION OF THE GAME IS ILLEGAL. YOU HAVING PREORDERED THE GAME DOES NOT GIVE YOU A LEGAL RIGHT TO DOWNLOAD THE ILLEGAL COPY. (...)THESE OUTLINED ACTIVITIES ARE STILL ILLEGAL.


And YOU are still wrong. As an example, I have got the legal right and a judge would tell you also. It would be a better idea that IV makes a free demo week or weekend to show the customers thats a good idea to order it (i.e. DoD:S-weekends on Steam). The warning to ban legal owners, who have downloaded the torrent version, is a fake. If IV would do so, they would loose a lot of money, because they would get into trouble with the law in some countries. So, don´t tell such (worse) stories, pls.

LET ME SAY IT CLEARLY: Order the game, it makes a lot of fun and it´s worth every penny of it´s price. A small company like IV is just able to develop such "new" game concepts, if you pay them. If you download a copy of Windows, it doesn´t hurt Bill Gates or Microsaft. But don´t hurt small developers, if you love their stuff. The option is yours, be fair! ;)

Just my 2 cents, thx
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Postby xyzyxx » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:28 am

backdoor2 wrote:In Germany it´s lawfully that you copy something that you have legally purchased (I´m not sure, but I think up to 7 copies), no matter which source.
You may have purchased a liscense to play DEFCON, but that liscence does not begin until Friday. You do not legally own it until then.
Some people talk because they have something to say. Others talk because they have to say something.
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Postby backdoor2 » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:04 am

xyzyxx wrote:You may have purchased a liscense to play DEFCON, but that liscence does not begin until Friday. You do not legally own it until then.


Would you bet (with my lawyer)? If you do not know for sure, it´s quite risky. And trust me, I own a license legally in that moment the seller confirmes the purchase. They have done, not on Friday, a couple of days ago! So, I actually own a license. ;)

But there are smarter ways than getting into trouble with courts in countries you are selling software to (because of an illegal ban). That´s the point. :wink:
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Postby xyzyxx » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:06 am

Well then, what if I told you that you don't even have a liscense to play the "Review-1" version that got leaked?

You bought a liscence to the Public Release version, not any of the dev versions, alphas, betas, or review versions.
Some people talk because they have something to say. Others talk because they have to say something.
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Postby Zarkow » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:22 am

backdoor2 wrote:
xyzyxx wrote:You may have purchased a liscense to play DEFCON, but that liscence does not begin until Friday. You do not legally own it until then.


Would you bet (with my lawyer)? If you do not know for sure, it´s quite risky. And trust me, I own a license legally in that moment the seller confirmes the purchase. They have done, not on Friday, a couple of days ago! So, I actually own a license. ;)


You are still wrong.

You own the right to download the game on friday - you haven't bought a license yet. The license will be intered when you install the game.

Besides, you have NO RIGHT to download a dev/alpha/beta-version of anything just because you have pre-ordered the retail-version.

Claiming that is moronic. And you will be laughed out of the court...and into jail.
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Postby backdoor2 » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:32 am

Well then, what if I told you that you don't even have a liscense to play the "Review-1" version that got leaked?

You bought a liscence to the Public Release version, not any of the dev versions, alphas, betas, or review versions.


Shall I give you the number of my lawyer, if you don´t trust me??? You can discuss it with him. :wink:

There is a german word called "Haarspalterei", the translation is that you´re splitting a single hair, which means that you hang on something to small to discuss in a general discussion, unable to see the bigger topic. Make a step backwards, read my posting once again! What might be that bigger topic? That it doesn´t hurt IV, if potential customers are playing an official/inofficial demo? That official demo days or something like that would be an idea to avoid topics like that?

You are still wrong.

You own the right to download the game on friday - you haven't bought a license yet. The license will be intered when you install the game.

Besides, you have NO RIGHT to download a dev/alpha/beta-version of anything just because you have pre-ordered the retail-version.

Claiming that is moronic. And you will be laughed out of the court...and into jail.


Hmm, you might be right in the US or in the UK. But in Germany it is definitley not.
Which law-system is valid, if you´re selling me an item from the US/UK to Germany? I tell you, that you have to regard german law, if you´re selling something to Germany (a citizen of Germany). You don´t have to sell there, do you? In doubt a german judge would accept an appeal in the court. Introvision is a UK company. And there are enough treatments between UK and Germany so that an judgement of a german court would have an effect to an UK company. But that is also "Haarspalterei"...
Last edited by backdoor2 on Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Zarkow » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:34 am

Your theory on the economical impact of the leak has nothing to do with the legal ramification of it.

Maybe you should call your own lawyer and find out.
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Postby backdoor2 » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:02 am

Zarkow wrote:Maybe you should call your own lawyer(...)


In the case, I would get effectively banned, I would. Because I´ve already paid for it. To me it´s all the same, if you believe my legal point of view or not. If you think, you don´t have to respect german law when you´re selling items to germany, it´s your problem, if you´ll get into trouble with that state of mind. I just said, that there are other options, but some guys seem to be international law specialists, who love to argue difficult law topics^^...
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Postby NeoThermic » Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:10 am

Defcon's Licence wrote:6. Miscellaneous. This Agreement shall be governed by the laws of England. If any provision, or any portion, of this Agreement is found to be unlawful, void, or for any reason unenforceable, it shall be severed from, and shall in no way affect the validity or enforceability of the remaining provisions of the Agreement.


If you don't play by the law of the licence, you can get lost.

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Postby Zarkow » Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:21 am

backdoor2 wrote:
Zarkow wrote:Maybe you should call your own lawyer(...)


In the case, I would get effectively banned, I would. Because I´ve already paid for it. To me it´s all the same, if you believe my legal point of view or not. If you think, you don´t have to respect german law when you´re selling items to germany, it´s your problem, if you´ll get into trouble with that state of mind. I just said, that there are other options, but some guys seem to be international law specialists, who love to argue difficult law topics^^...


Actually, no-one has to respect German law when they are selling something online. Only if the origin of the items sold are via servers IN Germany.
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Postby Cerealkiller » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:02 am

I can't believe what I'm reading here!

Just for you, backdoor2 : The German law allows you to make 7 copies of an AUDIO CD that YOU own! You are not allowed to copy from any source that is "obviously illegal" - this has been coined for movies on p2p networks. One of the definitions of "obviously illegal" was e.g. a movie that wasn't even in theaters yet - see the similarities? Fine!

I don't want to enter a legal discussion, but there you go with the German version of the relevant paragraph ( § 53 UrhG):

(1) Zulässig sind einzelne Vervielfältigungen eines Werkes durch eine natürliche Person zum privaten Gebrauch auf beliebigen Trägern, sofern sie weder unmittelbar noch mittelbar Erwerbszwecken dienen, soweit nicht zur Vervielfältigung eine offensichtlich rechtswidrig hergestellte Vorlage verwendet wird.

That basically states, that it is allowed to do "some" copies, which have to be done by a real person, for private use, as long as the source of the copy is not illegal.

As you can plainly see, there's even more to it than a private copy, as a p2p network is definitely more than just "some" copies. I just checked a torrent site for that - there's ~250 seeders alone for the leak. Apart from that, a copy of a game that's not been released yet is obviously illegal by German jurisdiction. All this privatecopy mess is actually not applicable to software - there you are usually only allowed to have a backup copy, in case the real one fails.
About the "if you're trading with a German citizen you've to adhere to German laws" thing: Sorry, but that is not completely true, although the passage in the EULA is questionable. Generally a contract falls under the jurisdiction of the country it has been signed in, so one could agrue, that you "signed" the contract on IV's server, which is probably located somewhere in England, which in turn makes to contract subject to British laws.

One last thing: "Haarspalterei" - well have you ever read what is written by German lawyers and judges? If not I may point you to the case of Heise.de vs. German music industry. According to the court it is legal to write about software, that can be used to circumvent copyprotection, but it is not legal to have links to the companywebsite that sells said software. For the court it was not relevant, that you could easily google the website. Face it - lawyers and judges live on these fine distinctions which are no more than Haarspalterei for the "common people" like us.

And, ahem - for the future I'd rather check the relevant laws before writing stupid stuff.

'nuff said.

Phil
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Postby Missile Command Kid » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:20 am

This is all very interesting, but not all of us live in America, England, or any other country that has civilised IP laws. Calling piracy "illegal" doesn't take into account that the world is a very large place, and there are parts of the world where there are no IP laws on the books. Piracy isn't polite, it isn't nice, it harms software makers, and as far as I'm concerned, the folks at Introversion are acting like true gentlemen in not even deigning to discuss the issue. I doubt anybody here would argue the concept of piracy in abstraction is a good thing, right?

But let's forget legality for a moment and look at ethics: ethically speaking, if somebody preorders the game (i.e pays for it in full) and downloads the game before it's officially released, is this unethical? I think this is the question that people need to be discussing, as the issue of legality on an international forum is going to go nowhere fast. People want to talk about whether something is "right" or "wrong" and are relying on the law to do so. Forget the law - talk about the philosophy of piracy, not the legality of piracy. I think it will be a much more satisfying discussion.

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