Europe Balanced?

General discussion about Defcon

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MadSeven
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Postby MadSeven » Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:53 pm

Zarkow wrote:
MadSeven wrote:I'm fully aware of that and have been wondering when and if they will do so, which might break the law in MY country, which would make this discussion even more....chaotic :-). Anyway, I am not easily offended.

Dutch law has no bearing on this forum.


Ah, we're getting somewhere....Exactly as xyz-copyright laws have no bearing on...?

MadSeven wrote:
Additionally, revealing your country would probably allow some of us to learn more about intellectual property rights around the world. I am myself a security-oriented engineer and open-source proponent, so I am always willing to learn about intellectual property issues, which have been growing ever more important over the last few years.


You make a few fair points. One of the "problems" is; I checked if I could find any English document confirming my statement. I can find many many in my own language, but that would not help you very much I'm afraid.

Anyway, since this has taken too much of my time already, i'll indulge you all;

Nationality; Dutch (yes, the ones that "legalize" drugs and red-zones as well)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_copyright_law[/quote]

I can hardly consider Wiki an authority on this, take a look for example at; http://www.iusmentis.com/copyright/nl/mp3/mp3legal/
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MadSeven
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Postby MadSeven » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:01 pm

4Matt wrote:Thank you very much for this clarification, MadSeven!
I actually learned something today... I wasn't aware of this type of legislation in the Netherlands.
Here in France, diffusion is illegal; however, we have the "private copy" concept, which says that you can make a copy for personal use, from a legal source (friend or close relative that you borrow an original CD from). Of course it is nullified in the case of an illegal source, such as Internet diffusion (upload), which is not loan. And it only applies to "artistic" products, i.e. audio and video. Software is treated differently; the owner, and only he, is entitled to a single backup copy. Software licences fully apply.

Different legal systems indeed... I guess we can argue all day about which is best and how much is broken and why, but we won't get very much insight from it. Although many people have differing opinions about the impact of piracy on IV sales, I think pretty much all of us agree on the fact that one should respect the developers' wishes in the end...

So let's stop it here - the next three days will be stressful enough, before we can all rejoice and nuke the hell out of each other with our legal copies of Defcon :wink:

edit: wording


Cheers 4Matt, glad we can agree to disagree :-) Just for the record, I do not consider "our" system better, nor worse. We're overregulated in some area's, and perhaps too liberal on this particular issue. I believe we had a "few" encounters before with the "conservative French" when it comes to drugs ...?

The dev's wish was granted; I ordered the copy based on my legal/illegal download, which was all I really wanted to state to begin with :-)

Even though I obviously never signed an NDA, I have kept my mouth shut about the game itself, which I think shows some respect for the devs as well. Ok, just one tiny little spoiler; it's THRILLING!
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Postby Zarkow » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:30 pm

MadSeven wrote:
Zarkow wrote:Dutch law has no bearing on this forum.

Ah, we're getting somewhere....Exactly as xyz-copyright laws have no bearing on...?

On countries that haven't signed any international copyright threatis. The Netherlands have.

MadSeven wrote:I can hardly consider Wiki an authority on this, take a look for example at; http://www.iusmentis.com/copyright/nl/mp3/mp3legal/

Wiki is not authority, it's an online encyclopedia.
If you wanted information directly from the sources you would click the linked documents on the page. Hence why I linked it. So others could read for themselfs.

Btw, don't bring MP3s (and music) into an debate over software, they are very different from eachother. And they are differently handled by law.
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Postby Mushy » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:19 pm

those flames are really useless ... in 3 days they'll be out of date
so if you really want to argue, i suggest having this nice discussion in private.

/me loves netherland, amsterdam, apeldoorn :p

"a conservative French"
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MadSeven
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Postby MadSeven » Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:03 pm

Zarkow wrote:
MadSeven wrote:
Zarkow wrote:Dutch law has no bearing on this forum.

Ah, we're getting somewhere....Exactly as xyz-copyright laws have no bearing on...?

On countries that haven't signed any international copyright threatis. The Netherlands have.


And obviously you haven't read a word of the information I provided. The discussion about downloads being legal or illegal has been going for a dozen years now. I am glad you solved it in an afternoon. The Berne Convention applies to Protection of Literary and Artistic Works afaik.

MadSeven wrote:I can hardly consider Wiki an authority on this, take a look for example at; http://www.iusmentis.com/copyright/nl/mp3/mp3legal/

Wiki is not authority, it's an online encyclopedia.[/quote]

Exactly, it's an encyclopedia built and maintained by whomever fancies to write in it. I'll stick with companies and organisations devoted to this specific subject.

those flames are really useless ... in 3 days they'll be out of date
so if you really want to argue, i suggest having this nice discussion in private.

/me loves netherland, amsterdam, apeldoorn :p

"a conservative French"

Agreed. Why on earth Apeldoorn though :-)
Me love french bread, cheese and wine
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Postby xander » Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:25 pm

In all of this, I think what you guys are missing is the fact that very few people here care about what is legal. We care about what we consider to be ethical. Whether or not downloading review copies of Defcon is legal, we consider it to be unethical. The people that are downloading the game are, in a sense, violating this community. They are taking away much of suspense that IV have worked hard to craft, they are gaining an unfair advantage by playing before the rest of us can (though that advantage should be ameliorated over time), and they are coming to this forum to gloat about it. You are ruining the experience. Fuck off and die.

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Postby kawsper » Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:35 pm

MadSeven wrote:
SomeBody wrote:I can hardly consider Wiki an authority on this, take a look for example at; http://www.iusmentis.com/copyright/nl/mp3/mp3legal/
Wiki is not authority, it's an online encyclopedia.


Exactly, it's an encyclopedia built and maintained by whomever fancies to write in it. I'll stick with companies and organisations devoted to this specific subject.


Which is why you see the pages the article links to in the bottom of the page, is it that hard for you to understand? I can also write a whole assignment based on wrong sources, but i dont get error from my teachers if i can link to my sources, and tell them that i was looking for more sources which says the same as my original source.
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MadSeven
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Postby MadSeven » Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:14 pm

kawsper wrote:
MadSeven wrote:
SomeBody wrote:I can hardly consider Wiki an authority on this, take a look for example at; http://www.iusmentis.com/copyright/nl/mp3/mp3legal/
Wiki is not authority, it's an online encyclopedia.


Exactly, it's an encyclopedia built and maintained by whomever fancies to write in it. I'll stick with companies and organisations devoted to this specific subject.


Which is why you see the pages the article links to in the bottom of the page, is it that hard for you to understand? I can also write a whole assignment based on wrong sources, but i dont get error from my teachers if i can link to my sources, and tell them that i was looking for more sources which says the same as my original source.


For the sources, scroll up. For the record, I posted both pro- and con-. I am glad your teachers teach you well.
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Postby KingAl » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:11 am

Right, lets just avoid a flaming trainwreck. MadSeven, ultimately the issue is that you can't claim that piracy is good because you purchased the game based on the strength of a pirate copy - ultimately, most people would not do as you have done. Furthermore, using a client such as bittorrent to aid in downloading pirate software also helps distribute it, and thus, while it may not be illegal to download a copy, the further distribution caused makes it illegal. However, lets just get back to the subject at hand.

Is Europe balanced?:
The density of units means that the radar reach is smaller, it is easier for enemies to identify the locations of your units and it is harder to identify where nukes will hit - meaning that, in attempting retaliatory attacks, the Europe player may be unsure which silo's to leave on defensive (though this is postulation). This may well balance with the many pros listed previously, and I think we can trust IV to ensure it is a balanced game.
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Postby ninjak » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:02 am

Back to the topic at hand, after watching people play the leaked version I can say that Europe is imba because of two reasons that have nothing to do with land area, coast lines, etc. Those two reasons are Moscow and Leningrad. Those two cities are 45 x 2 = 90 automatic points for Europe almost always. I've been watching 6 player FFA and all Europe has to do is nuke those cities a few times in the beginning, nuke a few of the other close Russian cities and be the first to nuke Cairo and the game is basically over. Subs nuking Washington and New York are just gravy.

Note that this is the beta version and maybe things have changed in the release. But what I see making Europe imba is Moscow + Leningrad as basically free kills and to a lesser extent nearby Cairo. No other nation has three giant cities nearby that are pretty much indefensible against a decent strike.

disclaimer: I watched noobs play using noob tactics and playing against noob CPUs. So maybe there are tactics that I don't know about.
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MadSeven
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Postby MadSeven » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:15 am

KingAl wrote:Right, lets just avoid a flaming trainwreck. MadSeven, ultimately the issue is that you can't claim that piracy is good because you purchased the game based on the strength of a pirate copy - ultimately, most people would not do as you have done. Furthermore, using a client such as bittorrent to aid in downloading pirate software also helps distribute it, and thus, while it may not be illegal to download a copy, the further distribution caused makes it illegal. However, lets just get back to the subject at hand.

Is Europe balanced?:
The density of units means that the radar reach is smaller, it is easier for enemies to identify the locations of your units and it is harder to identify where nukes will hit - meaning that, in attempting retaliatory attacks, the Europe player may be unsure which silo's to leave on defensive (though this is postulation). This may well balance with the many pros listed previously, and I think we can trust IV to ensure it is a balanced game.


Yes, let's please close it with the last comments :-) I don't use torrents nor P2P, because UPLOADING is indeed illegal. (and I wouldn't know a torrent-site if it fell on me.) That pretty much sums up why most people here use NNTP.

@Ninjak; Are you sure you didn't play? *never mind* Would that not work the other way around as well? Though the European cities close to the border are not as big...
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Postby Zarkow » Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:08 pm

ninjak wrote:Back to the topic at hand, after watching people play the leaked version I can say that Europe is imba because of two reasons that have nothing to do with land area, coast lines, etc. Those two reasons are Moscow and Leningrad. Those two cities are 45 x 2 = 90 automatic points for Europe almost always. I've been watching 6 player FFA and all Europe has to do is nuke those cities a few times in the beginning, nuke a few of the other close Russian cities and be the first to nuke Cairo and the game is basically over. Subs nuking Washington and New York are just gravy.

Note that this is the beta version and maybe things have changed in the release. But what I see making Europe imba is Moscow + Leningrad as basically free kills and to a lesser extent nearby Cairo. No other nation has three giant cities nearby that are pretty much indefensible against a decent strike.

disclaimer: I watched noobs play using noob tactics and playing against noob CPUs. So maybe there are tactics that I don't know about.


Just set up a Europe vs Soviet-game, I was the vodka-drinking one.
Let's just call it a 'Perfect kill', 183p vs -91, I had 0(!) deaths and killed 91.5million out of 100.
It's all about proper planning.
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Postby KudrigY » Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:28 pm

@ninjak

Based on beta:

place 3 silos on USSR / Europe border with two radars near them and half of Europe's landmass is in range of AA fire (wonder if ppl will place airbases close to any borderlines :) ). Having few big cities may not be all that troublesome, when they are close to each other and to other (but smaller) cities.

Cairo, Tokio and Tehran are different matter I suppose. I see no use in defending Cairo (example), couse that would take 2-3 silos near it, dramatically decreasing defence for rest, more importand areas. With more ppl in smaller cities but way closer together.
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Postby Montyphy » Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:36 pm

The Review version is not quite the Beta. And stop demonstrating your knowledge of having played the review.
Uplink help: Check out the Guide or FAQ.
Latest Uplink patch is v1.55.
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Postby Pyrostasis » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:21 pm

I know alot of people hate the guys who had the review/leaked copys but I think they do serve a purpose.

About 6 months ago while browsing through a p2p I found darwinia. I had never heard of it, and was actually afraid to open it at first. I donwloaded installed, and played what I thought was the game. IV actually released this aparently as in the middle of the level the guy stops talking to me about the world but starts chastizing me. I was freaking out, looking over my shoulder etc.

A week later I bought uplink and darwinia, and I have now pre-ordered defcon. I am totally in love with IV and do my best to get my friends to uy their games as I think they are a company that really deserves our support.

What I did was wrong, but, I feel the occasional p2p user that dl's quickly turns into a convert. Least thats what happened in my instance.


As for those talking about the game... Im finding it an enjoyable read. I was always interested in nuclear war and WW3 etc. Just something about wiping the world out with a few clicks that just scared the hell out of me, while facinating me at the same time. I cant wait to play the crap out of this game.... just need to sucker a few more of my co-workers into getting it =)

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