Chat Protection

[Eat_The_Path]

The chat needs either some sort of flood protection, or the ability to ignore offensive players. See http://forums.introversion.co.uk/defcon/viewtopic.php?p=57569 for a compelling reason why this is actually necessary to prevent malicious persons from ruining a game.

[Xocrates]

And see the first reply to that thread to know that that already exist.

[Eat_The_Path]

You shouldn't need a third party program to deal with this kind of thing. Protection of this sort should come out of the box with the game. I realize there are other options, and have been investigating them for myself, but there should be a built in measure against this.

[Feud]

Protection of this sort should come out of the box with the game.

...but there should be a built in measure against this.

Why?

I would like to see a built in system as well, but if you are going to say that it should have been there in the first place then you ought to explain why it is a neccesary feature, and not just a personal desire.

[xander]

You know, there was no reason at all to start this topic. You linked to the topic that you should have posted in, and failed to even read that topic to find out that a solution exists. In fact, now that I actually have a DedCon server up and running, and have been through all of the settings, I know that it is possible to limit the amount of chat that people may use, in terms of messages per minute. I have my server locked down to something like 10 messages per minute, so spamming is pretty much impossible.

In terms of needing third party apps (which was added between the time I loaded the topic and finished my reply): (1) Why should IV create a first party solution when a useful third party solution exists? and (2) Do you realize that DedCon has been acknowledged by Chris as the semi-official dedicated server for Defcon? So, while it is third party, it is officially supported.

xander

[torig]

Exactly. Just like in real life.

Incidentally, the game provides a feature, out-of-the-box to separate the real players from the griefing kids. It's called teh forums.
And they welcome you

Really, there isn't that much that can be done against people chat spamming and being silly in a myriad of other unique and creative ways you haven't seen yet, and don't wish to either.
Play people from the forums through the various ladder matches, play people you know or play on Dedcon servers. And be glad we got those, because while they aren't an out-of-the-box solution, they offer you a solution to your issue here.

[Eat_The_Path]

It was my impression that this particular forum was for suggestions for ideas to make defcon better. As such, I figured that the issue should be raised here, even if it has been raised elsewhere. But my ideas of what should be done are not always the same as other people's ideas.

Even if Dedcon is 'semi-offical' it still doesn't come with the game or any patch for the game. Obviously you don't agree with me, but that is my opinion on the matter.

[Feud]

It was my impression that this particular forum was for suggestions for ideas to make defcon better. As such, I figured that the issue should be raised here, even if it has been raised elsewhere. But my ideas of what should be done are not always the same as other people's ideas.

Even if Dedcon is 'semi-offical' it still doesn't come with the game or any patch for the game. Obviously you don't agree with me, but that is my opinion on the matter.

Yes, this forum section is for suggestions. But any idea that is worthy of consideration is also worthy of peer comments and criticism. No one says you must agree with everyone, or that everyone must agree with you. If you are going to offer your idea up as a suggested feature, then people are going to give their opinions on why it is good or bad.

No one is saying you can't have your opinion on the matter. Further, IV has not ruled out the inclusion of dedcon in a later patch. Bert's efforts could be viewed as the beta testing of the project. IV would be irresponsible if they gave officail sanction to a half finished feature, and releasing it as a "finished" feature when it is no such thing could cause much more harm then good.

We aren't trying to rag on you, just giving you feed back.

[0mnicide]

Protection of this sort should come out of the box with the game.

They can't predict every potential manner of griefing ahead of time, can they, nor can they devote every hour of every day to defeating all forms of misbehaviour in their last game while they're trying to make new games. Maybe IV will come up with something for it, but meanwhile, solutions to this issue have been designed by entrepreneurial folk as referred to already in this thread, and they work well enough, so there ya go.

[xander]

Do you want a solution to your problem, or do you simply want to complain about it and blame IV?

The fact is that the problem has a fix. Given that there is a fix, why should IV reinvent the wheel, and create a new fix? Furthermore, I don't think you understand what "semi-official" status means with regards to an IV game. You've see the pretty box art and manual for Defcon? Those were created by a guy that posted some cool images on the forum. IV liked the images, and hired him to do the art. In the last year and a half, IV have hired two other forum members (Icepick and elDiablo), after they proved that they knew what they were doing. IV have shown a willingness to incorporate user made content into their games in a "semi-official" fashion.

Furthermore, while DedCon may be "only" a semi-official dedicated server, that does not mean that it is not being supported by IV. Would you rather that IV reinvent the wheel by creating an all new server, or altering the server code in Defcon? Or would you rather that they helped bert_the_turtle create a better dedicated server, by giving him advice, and perhaps small bits of code? Personally, I would rather that IV get onto their next projects, and let bert_the_turtle build the server, which seems to be something that he is quite good at.

Also, as stated above, DedCon is not complete. Even if IV were to release it as part of a patch, would you seriously expect them to release it before it is complete? Before it has been properly tested and vetted? I would sincerely hope not...

Finally, with regards to your justification for posting a new topic here, the Think Tank is for offering suggestions for improving the game. The suggestions that get the most respect and positive attention are those that are solid suggestions like "improve the ability to use mods by making them downloadable from within Defcon," with a paragraph or two about how that might be done. Your suggestion is, "Stop people from spamming." No suggestion for how it might be done, and no real room for discussion. That is why you are getting such negative responses here -- you have not offered a solution, only complained about a known problem that already has a solution.

xander

[torig]

That is why you are getting such negative responses here -- you have not offered a solution, only complained about a known problem that already has a solution.

xander

At the risk of it looking like we are collectively coming down on you, I would expand on what xander said. And in this particular way:

That is why you are getting such negative responses here -- you have not offered a solution, only complained about a known problem that already has a solution, even after several people have pointed out this solution.
Many of us have had to put up with the abuse, with the dropping servers, .... before bert_the_turtle took an interest in defcon and created DedCon.

On its' turn, dedcon has enabled a few people to do things that previously weren't possible and to participate even further in this community. Like Xocrates, who ran interactive Defcon School servers that tutored newbies.
Neothermic, bert, Demosthenes and others have provided dedcon servers of various flavours for various needs since its' conception. Through DedCon it is possible to watch replays of your game (if the server admin has activated recording on his dedcon and provides the files in some way. Both bert and shinygerbil do so). Dedcon was the first to fix the subs over/under land exploit(s), dedcon is the sole "platform" that provides anti-griefing options. Not just anti-chat spamming, but anti-name-change spamming, anti-not-readying-up-in-the-lobby-so-the-game-can-be-stalled abuse. Furthermore, dedcon prevents "unknown" spammers from disrupting the game, it allows for moderators to kick and or kickban a user, it contains budgets (configurable) for the amount of time a player can spend in real time, will speed up real-time abusers who let it run at speed 1x for a long time automagically and can be so configured by any sany administrator that people who have a too bad connection towards the dedcon will be notified, accepted as spectators, but not as players. That may sound a bit harsh, but who wants to get into a game and undergo excruciating lag from the start to the end?

As of version 0.8, players will be able to log their scores (bert, no harm in saying this, I think? It's on your wiki, for those paying attention ). I'm brainstorming about an efficient way to store all that data in a database and query it via a web interface, so that eventually, a statistics/ranking system can be built on top of that.
That's a wild claim, as at this point it is *only* brainstorming and nothing really concrete.
I'm waiting for more free time, and for dedcon release 0.8 (but the "theoretical" part of the exercise is on-going).

So, don't think we don't understand your point. We once came from where you come, and we had a rougher time getting here. Now, if you have ideas, of course these are welcome, but most ideas have pretty much been discussed by now already. If you come up with a feature you'd like to see in dedcon, there's a topic for that, too.
And who knows, if it's good, usefull or just badass cool, bert may decide to integrate it. As he freely can choose not too.

[hobophobe]

explain why it is a neccesary feature, and not just a personal desire.

to prevent malicious persons from ruining a game.

Malicious persons are ruining the game. Defcon needs a spam/flood filter. End of discussion.

[Eat_The_Path]

Your suggestion is, "Stop people from spamming." No suggestion for how it might be done, and no real room for discussion. That is why you are getting such negative responses here -- you have not offered a solution, only complained about a known problem that already has a solution.

the chat needs either some sort of flood protection, or the ability to ignore offensive players

Perhaps I was too vague. Allow me to clarify. Flood protection means that when someone posts too many messages too quickly, they are prevented from sending any more for a period of time. If they keep doing it, they can't talk at all. An ignore command allows any user to block further messages from another user. Both of these are workable solutions. Yes, they are included in DedCon. Yes, they probably do take a bit of coding. But if I want to play on a non-dedcon server, as happens from time to time, I would like to have these features available. I really don't think this is an unreasonable request.

As for why this is a necessary feature, as mentioned in the other thread I encountered a particularly prodigious spammer recently. After he was done spamming, my frame-rate in the game was notably slower than before, and I am forced to conclude it is because of an absurdly huge chat buffer. The spamming had a direct impact on my gameplay, even if I had closed comms and turned off sound. Hence, I feel it is necessary.

We once came from where you come, and we had a rougher time getting here.

At the risk of sounding like the typical internet jerk, I have had the game since launch day. There was a 3-4 month period recently where I did not play, but otherwise I've been decently active online since the game came out. Perhaps in that time I've missed out on some issues cropping up, but I have been around the block a bit when it comes to this game. The fact that I only recently started posting on these forums has nothing to do with that.

[torig]

We once came from where you come, and we had a rougher time getting here.

At the risk of sounding like the typical internet jerk, I have had the game since launch day. There was a 3-4 month period recently where I did not play, but otherwise I've been decently active online since the game came out. Perhaps in that time I've missed out on some issues cropping up, but I have been around the block a bit when it comes to this game. The fact that I only recently started posting on these forums has nothing to do with that.

No offense taken.
I indeed took your being new on the forums and complaining about the chat spammers as a sign that you were relatively new to the game, as these issues have been around for months now.

No one will say that an /ignore in the standard defcon would be a bad idea. There are however solutions (play people from these forums, play people you know, use dedcons) that solve the problem quite well.
If a reason not to play on a dedcon is that the game mode you want isn't available, there are again two choices: you set up your own dedcon (for the duration of your game?) or you kindly request a dedcon server owner to offer such a game mode.

[xander]

I still don't understand why it matters that these protections be enabled in the basic client. What is the problem with using DedCon? It is not particularly hard to configure, especially if you only need a basic server. Once you set up a server, and join a game, it is not difficult to further configure. What is your objection to DedCon, and why is it so important that features from DedCon be thrown into Defcon?

xander