Most desired patch upgrade?

Ideas for expansions and improvements to Defcon

Moderator: Defcon moderators

What feature would you most like to see implemented?

Better MOD support
61
12%
An organised Tournament
33
6%
Player Ranking/Matching system
169
33%
Map Editor / Scenario Editor
82
16%
Better AI Opponent
65
13%
Recording and Playback of games
99
19%
 
Total votes: 509
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Radiant Caligula
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Postby Radiant Caligula » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:51 pm

thats fucking hilarious. Seen the Evolution ad?
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Postby xander » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:10 pm

shinygerbil wrote:
xander wrote:If you beat a player who is ranked much lower than you, you go down a lot.


I don't think this would work, unless there was some kind of "matchmaking" system where you could find others of your caliber to play against with ease. Or, at the very least, an easy way ingame to see others' rankings.

Sorry, that isn't what I meant to write. I had two different sentences in my head when I wrote it, and combined them. It should have been either "If you beat a player who is ranked much lower than you, you don't go up very much," or "If you lose to player who is much lower than you you, you go down a lot." Does that make more sense?

As to a matchmaking system, that would be required. I think that it could only work if the metaserver tracked each key (assume that each key equals one player), and keeps their rating.

For questions about larger games, let me see if I can find my earlier post...

xander

EDIT: Found it. My previous posts on the subject can be found in this topic, several pages in. I have reproduced the final system below, from that topic.
xander wrote:

Code: Select all

delta_rating = victory_margin * game_skill * win * drop_penalty
     victory_margin = winners_score - losers_score
     game_skill = losers_rating / winners_rating
     win is a boolean:  -1 for a loss, +1 for a win
     drop_penalty is either 1, or ranges from 0 to 1:  if a player drops and loses (or does not drop), drop_penalty is 1; if a player drops and wins, drop_penalty is the proportion of the game that they played, in simulated time

In this system, you basically model each game as several 1vs1 encounters. Thus, in a six player game, with players A, B, C, D, E, and F, to get A's change in rating, you would calculate AvsB, AvsC, AvsD, AvsE, and AvsF.
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Postby Trident » Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:43 pm

ss
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Postby Trident » Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:47 pm

BOLD , OVER SIZED and coloured text is REALLY ]GAY
maybe you should go back to myspace.com :lol:

(sorry i missed out in the hazing, it's a little late but i had to post it)

xander wrote:I would penalize losses, reward wins, and only lightly penalize drops.
xander

this negates my point, i.e. "oh im starting to lose, I better drop so that my score doesn't go down that much"
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Postby xander » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:51 pm

Trident wrote:
xander wrote:I would penalize losses, reward wins, and only lightly penalize drops.
xander

this negates my point, i.e. "oh im starting to lose, I better drop so that my score doesn't go down that much"

No, it doesn't. Please review the formula that I posted above. If you leave a game, and the AI ends up losing, then you receive the full penalty that you would have gotten from losing (this means that people who drop because they are losing are still penalized). On the other hand, if you drop, but end up winning, then you still get some points for the win, based on how much time you spent in the game before you dropped. This means that if you drop because your connection sucks (and not because you are lame), you can still get some points for the win, though not all that you would have gotten by staying in the game.

xander
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Postby xander » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:48 pm

Sorry for the double-post, more information:

An example of how the above formula would work. Let us take a look at a typical game, taken from the debreifing room ( http://forums.introversion.co.uk/defcon ... php?t=4223 ):

The final score is:

Code: Select all

Baron_Fei       104
Xocrates        73
ARSENAL GEAR    72
ue              63
pwnhaxor        62
Lysander        -4


The game lasted a total 4 hours, 31 minutes of game time (271 minutes). I am going to assume that both pwnhaxor and Lysander dropped in the middle of the game (though I don't actually know that). Let us pretend that Lysander dropped 45 minutes into the game after getting the shit nuked out of him, and that pwnhaxor dropped near the end due to a bad connection, say 4 hours worth of game time (240 minutes). Let us arbitrarilally rate the players. I have seen Xocrates win quite a few games, so I will assume that he has a relatively high rating, say 250 (again, just making this up). I am going to rate Lysander at 50, and ARSENAL GEAR, ue, pwnhaxor, and Baron_Fei at 135, 100, 120, and 150 completely arbitrarially. So, the ratings look like this:

Code: Select all

Baron_Fei       150
Xocrates        250
ARSENAL GEAR    135
ue              100
pwnhaxor        120
Lysander        50


First, let us calculate Baron_Fei's score. To do this, we need to compare him to each player, as follows:

Code: Select all

Baron_Fei vs Xocrates
victory_margin = 104 - 73 = 31
game_skill = 250 / 150 = 1.667
win = 1
drop_penalty = 1
delta_rating = 31 * 1.667 * 1 * 1 = 51.667


In other words, by defeating Xocrates, Baron_Fei's rating goes up by about 52 points. The rest of the results are as follows:

Code: Select all

All "Games": victory = 1; drop_penalty = 1

Baron_Fei vs ARSENAL GEAR
victory_margin = 104 - 72 = 32
game_skill = 135 / 150 = 0.900
delta_rating = 28.800

Baron_Fei vs us
victory_margin = 104 - 63 = 41
game_skill = 100 / 150 = 0.667
delta_rating = 27.333

Baron_Fei vs pwnhaxor
victory_margin = 104 - 62 = 42
game_skill = 120 / 150 = 0.800
delta_rating = 36.600

Baron_Fei vs Lysander
victory_margin = 104 - (-4) = 108
game_skill = 50 / 150 = 0.333
delta_rating = 36.000


The total change in Baron_Fei's rating would be the sum of all of the delta_ratings, or:

Code: Select all

Baron_Fei's new rating = Baron_Fei's old rating + sum(delta_rating)
                       = 150 + (51.667 + 28.200 + 27.333 + 36.600 + 36.000)
                       = 329.8


That is how Baron_Fei's score would be calculated. Each player, going down, would use the same procecure. The differences would be in the following: pwnhaxor's final delta_rating would be multiplied by 240/271 = 0.886 in the "games" in which he won (i.e. the game against Lysander). Lysander's drop penalty does not come into play, because he lost to everyone.

Now, this system is far from perfect. If a player with a rating of 1 challenges a player with a rating of 150 and wins, their rating will go up by 150 points for each point that they won by. If the margin of victory was 50 points, that player would go up phenomenally. Perhaps this is appropriate, perhaps not. I am not really sure.

Also, as this is the first time that I have actually done the math, I would suggest that ratings start at, say, 3200. This should keep the ratings from rocketing off uncontrollably. When I get a chance, I will write a little program to adjust ratings, and run through Xocrates' games to see where he would come out, and maybe figure out how to tweak things a bit.

xander
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Postby Xocrates » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:26 am

Woohoo! Test subject!

Anyway, I would like to make a small suggestion for your ranking system: Include ranks.

This idea is obviously very similar to what you can find in other games, but seems to work well. The point is that once you reach a certain rating you obtain a rank. However, the amount of rating needed between each rank increases.

So, if you needed say... 500 points to get rank 1, then you might need to get an additional 1000 for rank 2, 10000 for rank 3, etc... etc... (just so you get the idea, obviously there would probably need to be a formula and the numbers balanced).

And now, instead of comparing ratings, you compare ranks. So, if a rank 1 (newbie) defeats a rank 5 (veteran) by 100 points, he would get something in the order of (5-1)*100 or 400 points, which is less than a rank level, but significant, while a loss of 400 points to the rank 5 would hurt but not so significantly since his rating his probably in the tens or hundreds of thousands.
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Postby Church » Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:15 am

Hey all,

I just discovered Defcon less than a week ago, and I'm still trying out the demo (even in the demo the computer beats me nearly all the time unless I'm playing as Europe, so I have a LOT to learn yet).

Normally I shy away from multiplayer-oriented games. The reason for this is I have virtually no experience playing online multiplayer games, so if I do decide to take the multiplayer plunge, I'd very likely be easy points for the better folks until I either figure out what I'm doing or I give up, whichever comes first :)

That being said, I like the way Defcon plays enough that I may give its online multiplayer a chance. I also appreciate the fact I don't need the latest and greatest system to run it as my current system is a little behind the times, so to speak.

I went ahead and cast my vote for an improved AI. Being single-player-oriented, I would like a scalable AI opponent. I would also like to make another suggestion with regards to the AI: in addition to a scalable AI of varying difficulties, I'd love to see a user-customizable AI, something that could be adjusted to fit nearly any style of play. Single-player folks like me would have a nearly unlimited variety of AI opponents to play against. At the same time players in a league or tournament could use it as a training tool as they could set up the AI to simulate a particular opponent for an upcoming online match.

Take Care
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Postby Radiant Caligula » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:38 am

hey church. Appreciate new blood, but you havent really tasted the real defcon until you go multiplayer. And the only way to get better is to play human opponents. If you play CPUs over a period of time and switch to multiplayer when you "feel ready", prepare yourself to be slaughtered, as CPU enemies wont improve your game up to a certain level. And if you like single player Defcon, believe me - you're gonna LOVE multiplayer. Cmon take the leap! :D The sooner the better
Last edited by Radiant Caligula on Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Xocrates » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:04 pm

I can vouch for what caligula is saying.

Church wrote:Normally I shy away from multiplayer-oriented games. The reason for this is I have virtually no experience playing online multiplayer games, so if I do decide to take the multiplayer plunge, I'd very likely be easy points for the better folks until I either figure out what I'm doing or I give up, whichever comes first


Don't worry, that's part of the learning process. Personally, I shun away from most multiplayer gaming except Defcon - trust me, I really suck at other games.

Take a look at the strategic command, read through some of the most developed debriefings and play a few games, don't worry about the score, just try and have some fun.

If you want, I'm willing to schedule a few "tutorial" games teaching you the basics and some advanced plays. This applies to anyone interested, of course.
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Postby Radiant Caligula » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:19 pm

hey, setting up "Defcon school"- servers would be cool. We can't tutor everyone, but if we can make some sparks everyone would benefit from added new and better players.
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Postby Trident » Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:59 pm

Church wrote:Hey all,

I just discovered Defcon less than a week ago, and I'm still trying out the demo (even in the demo the computer beats me nearly all the time unless I'm playing as Europe, so I have a LOT to learn yet).

Normally I shy away from multiplayer-oriented games. The reason for this is I have virtually no experience playing online multiplayer games, so if I do decide to take the multiplayer plunge, I'd very likely be easy points for the better folks until I either figure out what I'm doing or I give up, whichever comes first :)

That being said, I like the way Defcon plays enough that I may give its online multiplayer a chance. I also appreciate the fact I don't need the latest and greatest system to run it as my current system is a little behind the times, so to speak.

I went ahead and cast my vote for an improved AI. Being single-player-oriented, I would like a scalable AI opponent. I would also like to make another suggestion with regards to the AI: in addition to a scalable AI of varying difficulties, I'd love to see a user-customizable AI, something that could be adjusted to fit nearly any style of play. Single-player folks like me would have a nearly unlimited variety of AI opponents to play against. At the same time players in a league or tournament could use it as a training tool as they could set up the AI to simulate a particular opponent for an upcoming online match.

Take Care


I think with the addition of AI with different charateristics could greatly add to the single player experience, maybe even a campaign or story mode.
Picture this.
You start with one opponent, after that there is two with different personalities maybe an attacker and defender, next with three your encouraged to make alliances, the game goes on, more opponents are added, alliances are broken, sneak attacks are launced, the game gradually builds up to a full six player experience.
The whole time it's being narrated by rolling text across the screen, in between each scenario your naval units and maybe buildings are replenished but deaths/ kills stay, and the oppertunity is given to save. the overall final goal; to be the only country with any survivors, and basically wipe every other person off the face of the planet.
whaddaya think?
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Postby Church » Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:06 pm

I went ahead and bought the full version (no longer playing demo), and I played a couple of online games and spectated a third last night (Even saw a CPU carrier traveling across the US/Mexico border in the game I was spectating...lol).

Multiplayer is loads of fun but I have much to learn yet.

I think with the addition of AI with different charateristics could greatly add to the single player experience, maybe even a campaign or story mode.
Picture this.
You start with one opponent, after that there is two with different personalities maybe an attacker and defender, next with three your encouraged to make alliances, the game goes on, more opponents are added, alliances are broken, sneak attacks are launced, the game gradually builds up to a full six player experience.
The whole time it's being narrated by rolling text across the screen, in between each scenario your naval units and maybe buildings are replenished but deaths/ kills stay, and the oppertunity is given to save. the overall final goal; to be the only country with any survivors, and basically wipe every other person off the face of the planet.
whaddaya think?


A campaign mode would make the single-player game quite interesting, and I'd like to see it, but as Defcon is primarily intended as a multiplayer game, I'd be surprised if IV did something like that.

Take Care

-Church
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Postby BlackheartRising » Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:22 am

I would love to have a powerful map editing tool. Give ratios according to Real statistics. Making the EU russia and United states the scary super powers they accualy are. Possibly giving people the option of adding units like More silos and carriers for specific territories. I know people woulnt like this but, with all due respect its a 3rd party map made by someone whom you dont have to play with. If you dont like it. Simply dont play that map.
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Postby Gen. Ripper » Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:31 am

xander wrote:As to a matchmaking system, that would be required. I think that it could only work if the metaserver tracked each key (assume that each key equals one player), and keeps their rating.


mmm would this work for steam users? I had the nasty suprise of having my key revoked when i logged on tonight, only to find that apprently steam re-sets or does some other dodgy stuff (I had to re-install via steam to it working again...although the key was diffrent from my original)

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