World Realism Mod

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icet
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World Realism Mod

Postby icet » Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:16 pm

Hi everyone,



How about a mod representing the world truly as it is now? There are five official nuclear powers:


1- USA

2- Russia

3- China

4- United Kingdom

5- France



and there are five which are nuclear powers but not official:


1- India

2- Pakistan

3- North Korea

4- Israel

5- Iran


So all in all there are ten countries with nuclear power in the world today. What if a mod is created where all these ten countries are included as nuclear powers and they could deploy their radars, silos etc. within their own territories only? But there is another alternative realistic viewpoints if the mentioned setting risks making the game out of balance. If instead of UK and France we could just create a nuclear Europe? Or if we allow UK and France to deploy their nukes in their overseas territories and in UK's case even Australia and Canada as they are commonwealth countries? And if we consider to allow USA to use Canada's territory, why can't we allow Russia to deploy their nukes in their Baltic enclave Kalilingrad, Belarus which is pro-Russian, Kazakhstan, Armenia etc. And if that is the case we could allow China use North Korean territory. And like wise every country could deploy their arsenal in the closest ally's territory. Before moving ahead I would request the community to take part in this issue and help resolve it and let me know their opinions as in which way the world should be divided keeping in view that this should correspond to the world which exists in reality. Looking forward to your feedback! :D
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torq
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Postby torq » Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:35 pm

But deployemt issues are not the only thing that throws 'real world' mode off balance

Look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_st ... ar_weapons

Russia and USA own more than 5,5 thousands of warheads while UK owns only 200.

And India/Israel/Pakistan don't have any ICBMs.
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Two Alliances/Blocks Scenario

Postby icet » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:33 pm

Another realistic idea coming in my mind is that of two blocks:



1- The Western Alliance:


Could include all western countries and their overseas territories, Israel, some Middle Eastern countries, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, and some other South East Asian countries, Mexico, Some South American and Central American countries,
Island countries of Pacific Ocean, South Africa and some other pro-western South African countries as well as those of North Africa. Most of Eastern European countries including Georgia but excluding Belarus. Also Afghanistan.


2- The Russian-Chinese Block which we could name "Patriotic Resistance Alliance":



Includes Russia, China, Belarus, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kirghizstan, Turmenistan, North Korea, Myanmar (Burma), Iran, Syria, Veneuzula, Brazil, Cuba, Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, Libya, Sudan, Zimbabwe.



Many countries would remain neutral like Ukraine which is political unstable and split country, Moldova, India, Pakistan, Bangaldesh and likewise.



What do you think about this?
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xander
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Postby xander » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:53 pm

First off, Defcon only allows a maximum of 6 teams. Furthermore, if you have fewer than 6 teams, then you cannot have random territory selection, because the unassigned teams might get assigned. Other than that, creating such a mod would be a very simple matter of altering a few specific bmps to reassign the territories. I don't really care for such a mod, so I am not going to do it, but you could probably finish it off in 10 or 15 minutes.

In your Defcon directory, find main.dat. Make a copy of it, and change the extension of the copy to .rar. Extract the file using something like WinRAR. Find the directory called "data/earth/", and copy or move that to a directory for your new mod. Then find the six .bmps that represent each of the six continents, and alter each one to represent one of the continents that you are trying to create.

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Postby PsychicKid » Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:22 pm

torq wrote:But deployemt issues are not the only thing that throws 'real world' mode off balance

Look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_st ... ar_weapons

Russia and USA own more than 5,5 thousands of warheads while UK owns only 200.

And India/Israel/Pakistan don't have any ICBMs.


Israel has ICBMs. The exact number is unknown but their Jericho III missles provide a strike distance of 4,800 km-7,800km. By definition, an ICBM must have a range of 5,500km or greater. I think the Jericho III can fit the bill. Israel can easily strike any of the other nuclear powers, except possibly North Korea, eastern China, and of course the United States. I'm very certain Israel has nuclear weapons and adequate delivery methods, even if it's not "confirmed". I'll eat my hat if they don't!

As far as I can tell, India and Pakistan do not have any missle systems that fit the criteria for an ICBM, but they can still strike each other, China, Israel, and possibly eastern Europe.
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Feud
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Re: World Realism Mod

Postby Feud » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:14 am

icet wrote:
and there are five which are nuclear powers but not official:


1- India

2- Pakistan

3- North Korea




Actually, it is very much official that these three Nations all have nuclear capabilities. They have all detonated nuclear weapons for both testing and/or political reasons.

Here are some articles on the matter:

On May 28, 1998 Pakistan announced that it had successfully conducted five nuclear tests. The Pakistani Atomic Energy Commission reported that the five nuclear tests conducted on May 28 generated a seismic signal of 5.0 on the Richter scale, with a total yield of up to 40 KT (equivalent TNT). Dr. A.Q. Khan claimed that one device was a boosted fission device and that the other four were sub-kiloton nuclear devices.

On May 30, 1998 Pakistan tested one more nuclear warhead with a reported yield of 12 kilotons. The tests were conducted at Balochistan, bringing the total number of claimed tests to six. It has also been claimed by Pakistani sources that at least one additional device, initially planned for detonation on 30 May 1998, remained emplaced underground ready for detonation.


http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/pakistan/nuke/index.html

After 24 years without testing India resumed nuclear testing with a series of nuclear explosions known as "Operation Shatki." Prime Minister Vajpayee authorized the tests on April 8, 1998, two days after the Ghauri missile test-firing in Pakistan.

On May 11, 1998, India tested three devices at the Pokhran underground testing site, followed by two more tests on May 13, 1998. The nuclear tests carried out at 3:45 pm on May 11th were claimed by the Indian government to be a simultaneous detonation of three different devices - a fission device with a yield of about 12 kilotons (KT), a thermonuclear device with a yield of about 43 KT, and a sub-kiloton device. The two tests carried out at 12:21 pm on May 13th were also detonated simultaneously with reported yields in the range of 0.2 to 0.6 KT.


http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/india/nuke/index.html

On October 9, 2006, North Korea announced it had conducted a nuclear test. The USGS reported a magnitude of 4.2 on the Richter Scale with a location at 41.29N 129.09E +/- 8.1 km. Initial speculations about the yield ranged from less than 1 kt up to 15 kt. On October 16, 2006, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence announced that analysis of air-samples conducted on October 11 had confirmed that the event had been an underground nuclear explosion near P'unggye on October 9, 2006. DNI concluded that the "explosion yield was less than a kiloton."


http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/index.html
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Re: Two Alliances/Blocks Scenario

Postby Cooper42 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:52 am

icet wrote:Another realistic idea coming in my mind is that of two blocks:

1- The Western Alliance:

Could include all western countries and their overseas territories, Israel, some Middle Eastern countries, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, and some other South East Asian countries, Mexico, Some South American and Central American countries,
Island countries of Pacific Ocean, South Africa and some other pro-western South African countries as well as those of North Africa. Most of Eastern European countries including Georgia but excluding Belarus. Also Afghanistan.


2- The Russian-Chinese Block which we could name "Patriotic Resistance Alliance":

Includes Russia, China, Belarus, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kirghizstan, Turmenistan, North Korea, Myanmar (Burma), Iran, Syria, Veneuzula, Brazil, Cuba, Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, Libya, Sudan, Zimbabwe.

Many countries would remain neutral like Ukraine which is political unstable and split country, Moldova, India, Pakistan, Bangaldesh and likewise.

What do you think about this?
If this is an idea of a 'realistic' set-up, I wonder what's this fictitious world you live in?
Whoever you vote for, the government wins.
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Chimaera
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Postby Chimaera » Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:05 pm

There is a reason why defcon is not based on the modern political situation. Aside from being severely unbalanced, there are complex factors to consider. For example, although nominally Russia appears to be a military superpower, with over 5000 nuclear weapons, her navy is an under-funded decaying mess, and even Britain's Royal Navy could destroy it with little truble, not the mentin how long it would take the USN to flatten it. Put simply, it would make the game unpleasantly unbalanced, or extremely unrealistic, which would negate the point of such a mod. And you are not dumping together France and the UK and calling is a 'realism mod' :o
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Postby icet » Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:28 pm

Chimaera,


The game itself is based on unrealistic basis. Africa and South America have nuclear capability. Leaving aside Australia. USA and Canada. etc. etc. And the prospect between a nuclear war between all of them. Though not denying that this is a great game, I am just trying to create a mod which is as close to reality as possible. Though Russia is weak in terms of naval power it still has too many nukes and as this game is based on nukes we could include Russia.



Cooper42,


I think this is the most realistic set up possible. Or what should be done? Should I include USA, UK, France, China, Russia, India, Pakistan, North Korea, Israel and Iran seperately covering only the territories they own now? Or should I make UK and its overseas territories, Canada and Australia into a group, France with its overseas territories into another? And what if UK fights with USA or France fights with UK? That would not be a realistic set up too. Or should a Federal Europe be included as another block?
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Postby Cooper42 » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:53 pm

icet wrote:Cooper42,
I think this is the most realistic set up possible. Or what should be done?
Accept that Defcon is a game, is not attempting to be realistic, does not need to be realistic, and will likely be b0rkn if it's forced to be 'realistic'

In terms of a 'realistic' set-up. By all accounts, UK, USA, France, Canada, Australia, Israel and India are all tied both directly and indirectly by various alliances.
That only leaves Korea, Pakistan and Russia as the other possible teams.


A better option would be to go for a fictional near-future scenario based upon current political climate.
(Or, likewise, a fictional alter-present)
Whoever you vote for, the government wins.
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Chimaera
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Postby Chimaera » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:45 pm

icet wrote:Chimaera,


The game itself is based on unrealistic basis. Africa and South America have nuclear capability. Leaving aside Australia. USA and Canada. etc. etc. And the prospect between a nuclear war between all of them. Though not denying that this is a great game, I am just trying to create a mod which is as close to reality as possible. Though Russia is weak in terms of naval power it still has too many nukes and as this game is based on nukes we could include Russia.



Cooper42,


I think this is the most realistic set up possible. Or what should be done? Should I include USA, UK, France, China, Russia, India, Pakistan, North Korea, Israel and Iran seperately covering only the territories they own now? Or should I make UK and its overseas territories, Canada and Australia into a group, France with its overseas territories into another? And what if UK fights with USA or France fights with UK? That would not be a realistic set up too. Or should a Federal Europe be included as another block?


You just stated the exact reason why realism should not be the main focus for any defcon mod. By all means go ahead and mod, but if you make realism the main design feature then you will come up against many problems which will lead to a compromise in balance required skill and entertainment. Just write up some awesome alternate history/near future story and conform to the 'realism' within the frame of that story. I have been thinking of my own ideas for some time now, and if I had any modding/programming talent I would have attempted my own mod. Feel free to ask for ideas, as they are doing no good kicking around my head.
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Postby icet » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:56 pm

Cooper42 and Chimaera,


Thanks for your valuable input. Ok I agree with you that it is not be feasible to create a truly realistic setup as I first thought. So lets move ahead with a fictional near future scenario based upon current political climate. So here is the near future story:



"With Putin having the desire to continue as president of Russia for a third term as well as desiring a further boost in his popularity with the Russian people, he signs a union treaty with Belarus in early 2008 creating a new country and thus a new constiution removing the limit for a president elected for two terms running for a third term. The change in constitution allows a president to run for as many terms as he wishes. United States and all democratic countries accuse this as a betreyal to democracy and Russia going back into another dictatorship. They call to enforce sanctions on Russia in many spheres which further aggravates their relationship with Russia. Meanwhile Iran succeeds to have nuclear weapons capability with active help from Rusia. China with a booming economy and a large military termes all this as the success of its model of governance i.e. political dictatorship with economic democracy and further tries to boost its ties with its northern neighbor by forming a military alliance turning the Shanghai Cooperation Organization into Patriotic Resistance Alliance including all the Central Asian countries, Armenia, Iran, Syria, Pakistan, North Korea, Sudan, Libya, Cuba, Venezuela, Brazil, Malaysia, Indonesia and with all the countries opposing the West. The West alarmed at these developments tries to boost ties among themselves and with the like minded countries to counter this serious threat to world peace. Alongside western counties like UK, USA, France, Canada, Australia, Spain, Portugal and the rest of the EU, these primarily include India, most of South and Central America, South Africa, South Korea, Israel, Taiwan and Japan. Amid this tense period China's Premier gives a warning to Taiwan to surrender to the Chinese rule within three months or face invasion. The United States sensing danger to Taiwan's independence sends troops and arms into the country for its protection. In the August of 2015, the Patriotic Resistance Alliance declares war on the Western Alliance called "Alliance of the free".

So what do you think about this setup? Let me know. :)
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torq
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Postby torq » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:46 pm

It's absolute nonsense from political points of view (firstly, China would never ally with Russia, sooner it'll invade Siberia and the Middle East will never ally with anyone :) ) but it can provide an interesting gameplay, so go draw a map.
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Postby Feud » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:56 am

As an added note of realism, if you play as anyone except for Russia then hit men will kill you for challenging Putin's authority. :D
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torq
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Postby torq » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:10 am

Feud wrote:As an added note of realism, if you play as anyone except for Russia then hit men will kill you for challenging Putin's authority. :D


Now we use Polonium for that :lol:
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