Tool: DEFCON ModSuite [BETA]

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Postby wwarnick » Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:21 am

xander wrote:Fanboi.

Loyal to the end.

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Postby xander » Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:24 am

wwarnick wrote:...porting...

To what?

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Postby wwarnick » Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:10 am

To Mac, Linux, and every other OS that a framework is created for.

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Postby NeoThermic » Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:51 pm

wwarnick wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:The only way this'll ever be true is if Microsoft actually help and develop .net ability for the said platforms.

I'm assuming they intend to. Correct me if I'm wrong.


But as of yet have failed to. I do not see a .net runtime for Linux or Mac outside of the work done by the Mono team, of which MS has no hand in that. You're more than welcome to correct me though, this is why I shy away from .net.


wwarnick wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:Compared to? Also note that compile time doesn't matter much, at all. It isn't like we're all running Gentoo and need to compile our applications frequently. The end user will never see a compile. Thus your point is invalid.

(Compared to C++) A convenience for the programmer. This may not be major, but I happen to like it.


Not sure about you, but I set up VS to compile, and then I go make myself a cup of coffee. Thankfully I get paid to get this cup, as the application is compiling as I do so. If it was faster, I wouldn't get paid! ;)



wwarnick wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:
wwarnick wrote:simplifies many previously tedious processes


Name some?

GUI, memory management, security, porting to name a few. The fact that .NET saves time isn't even debated. The reduction in coding time is balanced by a reduction in performance. I don't think you'll argue that.


Yes! No! Wait! If those are the simplications, and they work (thats imperitave), then I'm sure the performance degredation is acceptable. That is, assuming it isn't too horrid.

wwarnick wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:
wwarnick wrote:reduces coding time significantly without any real decrease in power


Coding time can be better reduced by proper prototyping, coding styles and planning. You might save a few mins here or there by using tools that do things for you, but your time is better saved by proper development styles.

Ah. And proper prototyping, coding styles, and planning cannot be done in .NET?


First rule of prototyping: don't do it in the target language.

However, that isn't my point. My point is that although you can save coding time, there's better ways to do so, relying on .net isnt' one of them.

wwarnick wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:
wwarnick wrote:BTW - There are actually areas in which .NET performs better.


Incidently you quielty ommit to name them. Care to?

First off, native code on the whole is inarguably faster. However, though outweighed, there are a few (meaning a few) performance increases in .NET. .NET enables computer-specific optimizations, eliminates indirection to addresses known only at runtime, and has faster heap allocations. That's all I know offhand. There may be a few more, I don't know. Nevertheless, there aren't many. I never said .NET as a whole was faster. However, the performance reduction is very small, and for my purposes insignificant.


Last time I checked, one can set cflags to enable set optimizations in C++ too. If I don't care about original pentium PC's, I can set my code to be i686 compatable only. Granted, heap allocation speed improvements are welcome though.

wwarnick wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:
wwarnick wrote:I personally think it kicks Java in the nuts, but that's just me


Oh cripes, don't get me started on Java... ;)

Meaning you like or dislike Java? Just in case, change my wording from "kicks Java in the nuts" to "I prefer C#".


I dislike Java. With a passon. If you agree, thats great, if else I'll strangle you with some bytecode ;)

wwarnick wrote:I'm not sure whether to take your post as friendly discussion or on the defense. Either way, I hope this clears this up. I only meant to promote .NET as a Java programmer would promote Java and a Mac user would promote a Mac.

Discussion. I'm always open to new languages, and I find the best way to learn about them is by looking like you're attacking a supporter. You hear far more relevent info that way :)

wwarnick wrote:Speaking of Macs, I have yet to hear a Mac/PC comparison that has even verged on technical. The most valid point I've heard to date is that Mac's taskbar better satisfies Fitt's law. Please share any knowledge you have.

wwarnick



My experence with Macs is limited. Although they might obey a few laws for their GUI, there's flaws in it ;)

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Postby xander » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:11 pm

wwarnick wrote:To Mac, Linux, and every other OS that a framework is created for.

wwarnick

And there are frameworks for Mac and Linux? Last time I checked, there weren't... It seems to me that .NET it fine for Windows or XBox development (which may be all that you want to do), but worthless for much of anything else.

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Postby Faxmachinen » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:30 pm

So anyway, I asked zanzer7 long ago to host Mod Suite version 11F on his page, but I haven't heard from him since then, so I'm beginning to become impatient. If anyone else wants to host or just take a look at version 11F, send me a PM with your email address.
Note to GMail users: You will have to build the executable yourself, since GMail doesn't accept zipped EXE files.
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Postby zach » Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:35 pm

Meh. Did a gmail flushing not too long ago. If it was in there, it's most probably gone now :oops:

Would you mind sending again? :roll: (By the way, just rename the .zip file to something else)
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Postby Faxmachinen » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:33 am

Did you flush your PMs on this forum too? :wink:

Anyway, email sent.
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Postby wwarnick » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:44 am

xander wrote:And there are frameworks for Mac and Linux? Last time I checked, there weren't... It seems to me that .NET it fine for Windows or XBox development (which may be all that you want to do), but worthless for much of anything else.

The idea was that frameworks would eventually be created for them, but you and NeoThermic are right in that they still don't exist. However, I think Microsoft would be smart to get to work on them because until those frameworks are created, .NET is Windows and XBox only like you said.

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Postby wwarnick » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:47 am

NeoThermic wrote:Discussion. I'm always open to new languages, and I find the best way to learn about them is by looking like you're attacking a supporter. You hear far more relevent info that way :)

Ah. You have a point. Maybe I'll try it with a Mac user sometime.
xander, you freak! Macs are terrible! They're slow, buggy, and they just plain stink!

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Postby xander » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:52 am

wwarnick wrote:
NeoThermic wrote:Discussion. I'm always open to new languages, and I find the best way to learn about them is by looking like you're attacking a supporter. You hear far more relevent info that way :)

Ah. You have a point. Maybe I'll try it with a Mac user sometime.
xander, you freak! Macs are terrible! They're slow, buggy, and they just plain stink!

wwarnick

If you have particular issues, let me know, and I will try to help you. However, your vague name calling is not the kind of attacking that NeoThermic had in mind, I think. Personally, I prefer the interface, I don't think that they are slow, I don't know where you go the idea that they were buggy (esp compared to Windows), and my Mac smells like plastic and electricity.

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Postby wwarnick » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:03 am

A joke. None of my attacks on Mac had any backing. I made them up. And you're not a freak. You're actually an alright guy.

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Postby zach » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:15 am

I get too many PMs here, can't really keep track of them all =/
I do see you sent me one, though. And I think I read it while I was very tired, too ...

Anyway, I skipped through the code, and agree with mostly all of your changes. Especially this one caught my eye;

Code: Select all

   // Well, would you look at that. Changing the mode to
   // GL_LINE_LOOP halves the number of instructions needed.
   glBegin(GL_LINE_LOOP);
I didn't know that mode, thank you! *Instantly updates other apps to make use of this mode where applicable*

I took the liberty of adding the files mentioned in the readme to the archive by default. Let me know if you want this changed. Also added this to the readme, below the installation instructions;

Code: Select all

NOTE:
   I took the liberty of adding these sample images to
   the archive. Feel free to remove or change them as you
   see fit.
     ~ zanzer7
.

The archive is now located at http://defcon.s4l.dk/downloads/tools/modsuite-11f.zip, and the tools page (as well as the first post in this thread) has been updated to reflect this.

~

Enjoy :)

And by the way, wwarnick; xander is already married ;)
(Just kidding. He is, though)
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Postby wwarnick » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:35 am

zanzer7 wrote:And by the way, wwarnick; xander is already married ;)

xander, I'm offended. You were using me! Unbelievable!

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Postby shinygerbil » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:08 pm

wwarnick wrote:
zanzer7 wrote:And by the way, wwarnick; xander is already married ;)

xander, I'm offended. You were using me! Unbelievable!

wwarnick


He's like that. I've learned to live with it.
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