Pushing subs in front of main fleet

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Laika
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Pushing subs in front of main fleet

Postby Laika » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:56 pm

Does its efficiency depend on luck mostly ? Should it be ever used at all ? If yes, when and how ?
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Ace Rimmer
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:14 am

In my opinon, this is like using salt in cooking. Best used sparingly, if at all, and then you can season to taste once the meal is cooked.

I.e., avoid doing it when they are full of nukes except on rare occasions, and then after you've used the nukes, you can put them in combat. Think of it like this; would you put you silos in combat if they could move extremely slow?
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Postby AIRburst95 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:17 am

I keep them just "below" my fleet to start then slowly move them forward as it hit defcon three, my idea is that the use of protecting my subs first then moving them forward later as i need them gives me time (if i need it) to back my fleet up as far as i want.
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Postby cza » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:21 am

Ace Rimmer wrote:In my opinon, this is like using salt in cooking. Best used sparingly, if at all, and then you can season to taste once the meal is cooked.

I.e., avoid doing it when they are full of nukes except on rare occasions, and then after you've used the nukes, you can put them in combat. Think of it like this; would you put you silos in combat if they could move extremely slow?



To paraphrase Jimmy Buffet, how did you feel about finding Hooru's lost shaker of salt earlier today? I was surprised you didn't have your usual antisub pickets up and ready.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:43 pm

I figured I needed all available planes and didn't expect his subs. My mistake. To be fair, I did it to him first.

:mrgreen:
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Postby sfericz » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:02 pm

Well it seems in every 1v1 I'm in now, they push their whole sub fleet in front of their battleship/carrier fleet to force me to retreat. It has happened in every 1v1 I've been in since I've been back agasint pro players.

BTW this is right at defcon 1.
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Postby hooru1 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:22 pm

before def 1, good idea to bring whole sub fleet forward.

it should be close enough to main fleet to be protected, maybe just outside radar range. the closer subs are together, the better they do against other subs. however, the closer they are together, the more likely there will be multiple sub deaths against anti sub.

its a good trade to do before defcon 1, if you find subs, you will kill subs/lose subs, so even losses/gains. if the enemy fleet sees you pinging, they might retreat if they aren't ready with their own subs/anti sub, which can throw off their bomber sync and make killing their bombers easier. also u might have all 12 subs under entire enemy fleet at defcon 3, and with the support of your entire fleet attacking aswell, it doesnt matter how many subs u lose to anti sub, you will win that naval battle.

any time u provoke the enemy in such a way is good, because u are pushing them off balance
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:27 pm

Except in cases of full on full fleet, where everybody loses. :P
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Postby Experiment632 » Wed May 16, 2012 6:05 pm

Subs can be very effective in naval combat. If a radar building is strategically placed, you can keep your surface fleet at a semi-safe distance and allow your subs to attack the enemy carriers... not battleships, just the carriers. The bombers can deal with the battleships ONCE you destroy the carriers in the attack group... just make sure your subs aren't too close to the battleships.
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Postby kudayta » Wed May 16, 2012 10:24 pm

Experiment632 wrote:Subs can be very effective in naval combat. If a radar building is strategically placed, you can keep your surface fleet at a semi-safe distance and allow your subs to attack the enemy carriers... not battleships, just the carriers. The bombers can deal with the battleships ONCE you destroy the carriers in the attack group... just make sure your subs aren't too close to the battleships.


Yeah, don't try to do that against anyone that knows what they're doing. :) The obvious objection is that carriers can fight back against a sub, and a battleship cannot. Passing up a sure thing is usually a bad idea.

That being said, to respond to a major sub push without a supporting navy, the proper move is to dodge it (the pinging subs will show up on radar long before the subs touch any of your ships), wait until defcon 1 and then drop bomber nukes on the subs. Like most things in this game, you can never fully rely on just one unit, or one class of units to win. It's about integration of everything you've got to work as a cohesive unit.
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Postby Experiment632 » Wed May 16, 2012 10:30 pm

kudayta wrote:That being said, to respond to a major sub push without a supporting navy, the proper move is to dodge it (the pinging subs will show up on radar long before the subs touch any of your ships), wait until defcon 1 and then drop bomber nukes on the subs. Like most things in this game, you can never fully rely on just one unit, or one class of units to win. It's about integration of everything you've got to work as a cohesive unit.
That is why I don't prefer not to ping. Stick to radar is best. Best time to ping is well behind your own lines near your coast since pinging both reveals enemy subs and allows your own subs to fire upon them.
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Postby kudayta » Wed May 16, 2012 11:12 pm

Experiment632 wrote:That is why I don't prefer not to ping.


Image


Experiment632 wrote:Stick to radar is best. Best time to ping is well behind your own lines near your coast since pinging both reveals enemy subs and allows your own subs to fire upon them.


So, just passive attacking the carriers then? Again, don't try this against someone that knows what they're doing. For it to work, you have to see his carriers, and you have to assume that all of them are not on anti-sub mode. And the carrier can move faster than the sub, so he can get out of range before the subs can kill all of the carriers. Frankly, I think it's best to stick to Ace's advice on this topic and treat sub attacks like you would treat salting your meal. Four to six subs on active to push in front of your fleet, and the hold the rest in reserve (Moon subs is the meme around here). And even then, four to six subs is a gamble.
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Postby Experiment632 » Thu May 17, 2012 2:06 am

kudayta wrote:So, just passive attacking the carriers then? Again, don't try this against someone that knows what they're doing. For it to work, you have to see his carriers, and you have to assume that all of them are not on anti-sub mode. And the carrier can move faster than the sub, so he can get out of range before the subs can kill all of the carriers. Frankly, I think it's best to stick to Ace's advice on this topic and treat sub attacks like you would treat salting your meal. Four to six subs on active to push in front of your fleet, and the hold the rest in reserve (Moon subs is the meme around here). And even then, four to six subs is a gamble.
Yeah, I know that with this game, while every problem has a solution, every solution has a counter-solution aka bigger problem. I think the game lets you know when an enemy carrier in radar sights is going into anti-sub mode. Also I don't just send every sub I got after the enemy fleet. I delegate each sub for different missions, such as fleet operations, hunter-killer missions, nuke strikes, and other uses. There should be a few extra tutorial chapters in the game regarding subs. And I need the source code for that which obviously won't happen anytime ever.
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Postby kudayta » Thu May 17, 2012 3:00 am

Experiment632 wrote: Yeah, I know that with this game, while every problem has a solution, every solution has a counter-solution aka bigger problem. I think the game lets you know when an enemy carrier in radar sights is going into anti-sub mode. Also I don't just send every sub I got after the enemy fleet. I delegate each sub for different missions, such as fleet operations, hunter-killer missions, nuke strikes, and other uses. There should be a few extra tutorial chapters in the game regarding subs. And I need the source code for that which obviously won't happen anytime ever.


Ok, so your plan is to use four to six subs to attack carriers passively? This is assuming his carriers are in radar range, and not in anti-sub mode (the game doesn't inform you that a carrier is in anti sub mode before you see the depth charges around your sub.) Meanwhile, you're hanging back with the rest of your fleet inside of coastal radar and silo coverage. I tell ya what, why don't you try that against a good player sometime. Then you can tell us all about naval nuking, and how it's unfair. :)
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Postby Experiment632 » Thu May 17, 2012 5:24 am

kudayta wrote:Ok, so your plan is to use four to six subs to attack carriers passively? This is assuming his carriers are in radar range, and not in anti-sub mode (the game doesn't inform you that a carrier is in anti sub mode before you see the depth charges around your sub.) Meanwhile, you're hanging back with the rest of your fleet inside of coastal radar and silo coverage. I tell ya what, why don't you try that against a good player sometime. Then you can tell us all about naval nuking, and how it's unfair. :)
4-6 subs? Could be more, could be less, could even be one or two. One or two lone subs can work well when teamed up with the surface fleet. Heard of one case sometime back where someone pinged a lone sub of theirs, resulting in the enemy changing the course of his entire fleet. That fleet ended up sailing right into an ambush. I am guessing the unfortunate guy was a newbie.

I know there is no such thing as a perfect defense. With Europe versus Russia, Russia sending subs in alone is suicide. Nearly 100% of the time, the European player sends all Russian subs down to Davy Jones' Locker. And placing subs in the Pacific and moving them around the long way is a huge waste of time. The victory timer will come and go long before the subs get anywhere near Europe. However the Euro fleet is very vulnerable to bomber and/or naval nuke attacks since there is not as much room in the Atlantic to maneuver.

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