how to play like Mogwai :P

In-depth tactical discussion on how to lose the least

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Ace Rimmer
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:34 pm

Maybe not (get eaten), if the zero turn is used to face the enemy and insta-fighter is combined. :P
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Postby Nightwatch » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:50 pm

zoros dog wrote:oh thats what i mean, damn :P like in the pic in first post, the enemy fleet would be right infront of it near africa coast

In your dreams maybe.
In reality you might very well face something like this:
Image

I maneuver on your flanks at will, close the trap and attack you from two directions while having much more space available to eat up your counterpush. I sustain maybe fifty percent casulties while destroying your fleet.



Ace Rimmer wrote:Maybe not (get eaten), if the zero turn is used to face the enemy and insta-fighter is combined.
Distance and room eats everything.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:54 pm

There's only one way to be sure. :wink:

(zoros dog vs Nightwatch testing it out)
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Postby Blackbeard » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:42 pm

This was the last game I played against Mogwai.

http://sfcon.demoszenen.de/dcrec/2010-0 ... _12.19.zip

Image


If you watch the recording you will see how he expertly retreats his ships, while my front line collapses into chaos :x . So really, I think to play this way, you must actually be Moggy, or at least tune into his brainwaves or something...


Here's another one, against a more competent player (some Italian Stallion :roll: ). Same Territories

http://sfcon.demoszenen.de/dcrec/2010-0 ... _13.34.zip

Image

I noticed three things about how moggy's navy performed.
1: The carriers gave the Battleships that little bit of extra radar to take an extra shot at incoming fighters.
2: The Carriers, being on the same level as the Battleships, gave bombers just the extra edge when encountering forward enemy battleships.
3: Enemy bombers, when they actually did get chance to fire on moggy's fleet, seemed to spread their fire evenly between each ship, possibly making each ship survive longer than if isolated.
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Postby tllotpfkamvpe » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:43 pm

Blackbeard wrote:3: Enemy bombers, when they actually did get chance to fire on moggy's fleet, seemed to spread their fire evenly between each ship, possibly making each ship survive longer than if isolated.


I always thought it was the other way around.

Imagine 10 bombers fighting 10 ships.

Scenario 1
All 10 bombers are targetting 1 ship at a time until its dead, then to next etc.
Assume each ship will die after receiving the 10 shots from the bombers, ie in 1 turn it takes to fire all of the bombers, the ship is dead.

Scenario 2
Each bomber targeting a seperate ship.
Assume a ship will die in 3-6 shots, so some will die after 3 turns other will die after 5 or maybe even 6.

Problem with scenario 1 is after the ship dies, all of the bombers will still have sent one more shot at a target that wont be there. This is the "wasted shot (TM)". So in reality each ship will be taking 20 shots or 2 turns. With scenario 2 if a ship takes 3 shots, then the fourth is wasted. If it takes 5 then the sixth is wasted and so on.

With scenario 1 there will be 10 wasted shots per unit, to kill all ships 100 shots are also wasted.
With scenario 2 only 1 wasted shot per unit, only 10 wasted shots after killing all ships.

This is the same reason spread silos work better in defence compared to tightly packed silos which are good in attack. Spread silos can hit different targets and therefore less shots are wasted overall.
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Postby Ace Rimmer » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:32 pm

Your scenarios are flawed, we need true tests.
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Postby Nightwatch » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:45 pm

Hes right. Acting on this for years.
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Postby xander » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:19 pm

There is an analysis that could be done with Markov chains. If I get motivated, I'll write it up.

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Postby Blackbeard » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:57 pm

My observations were "anecdotal" :P *goes to watch the playback again - this time paying attention*.
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Postby zoros dog » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:11 am

Blackbeard wrote:1: The carriers gave the Battleships that little bit of extra radar to take an extra shot at incoming fighters.


isn't the battleship radar the same as its shooting range?
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Postby kudayta » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:59 am

zoros dog wrote:
Blackbeard wrote:1: The carriers gave the Battleships that little bit of extra radar to take an extra shot at incoming fighters.


isn't the battleship radar the same as its shooting range?


Yes, but it also takes time for the battleship's weapon to engage the inbound fighter. Hence, if the carrier radar sees a fighter first, the battleship can engage right at the edge of its combat radius.
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Postby Blackbeard » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:48 am

Blackbeard wrote:3: Enemy bombers, when they actually did get chance to fire on moggy's fleet, seemed to spread their fire evenly between each ship, possibly making each ship survive longer than if isolated.


This is what I mean, and it's only an observation of one particular fleet battle (moggy v zozo), and I don't kno nuthin about wasted shots and "stuff".

Image

In the first scenario ^ , the Bombers see all the ships in a nice straight line and think, "YAY!! it's killing time". Unfortunatley, in teh heat of battle, the pilots forget to communicate, and each targets a different ship, thus causing only minor damage.



Image

In the second scenario, one poor ship comes into range, and all the pilots say "FIRE!!!" thus zapping the ship like in a scene from War of the Worlds.

I know what your gonna say: we knew this all along. ...JUST DON'T CALL ME STUPID! :lol:
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Postby zoros dog » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:19 pm

kudayta wrote:
zoros dog wrote:
Blackbeard wrote:1: The carriers gave the Battleships that little bit of extra radar to take an extra shot at incoming fighters.


isn't the battleship radar the same as its shooting range?


Yes, but it also takes time for the battleship's weapon to engage the inbound fighter. Hence, if the carrier radar sees a fighter first, the battleship can engage right at the edge of its combat radius.


i dont think this is right :( i think battleships only engage something when it enters its combat range, unlike bombers.
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Postby Blackbeard » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:57 pm

zoros dog wrote:
kudayta wrote:
zoros dog wrote:
Blackbeard wrote:1: The carriers gave the Battleships that little bit of extra radar to take an extra shot at incoming fighters.


isn't the battleship radar the same as its shooting range?


Yes, but it also takes time for the battleship's weapon to engage the inbound fighter. Hence, if the carrier radar sees a fighter first, the battleship can engage right at the edge of its combat radius.


i dont think this is right :( i think battleships only engage something when it enters its combat range, unlike bombers.


Well to be honest, I haven't researched any of what I said, and all of it is probably a load of crap. if you put a row of Battleships without Carriers, they would probably kill incoming fighters just as quickly.

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