As you can see from my post count, I am rather new here. I stumbled over Defcon a couple of days ago and immediately bought a key. Geez, I waited for this game since 1983, why did it just take so long...
Anyway, some of you might have seen me online already, I played a few games. With rather minimal success, which of course did not surprise me. I usually play 6 player games, either diplomacy or default, it doesnt matter to me much yet since currently I am just trying to learn the controls of the game (speed is a key here...).
Now, to my question or it's rather seeking for advice. I know with just a few games of experience there is not much in for me against veteran players. However, maybe some of you could give me some pointers for a survival strategy. The main problems I have:
o) Unit placement: I'm struggling to place my units in a good way and timely manner, especially the fleet. I understand that it is usually better to split the fleet into smaller groups (instead of 6-6/6-6/6-6), especially with submarines. But the more groups I place, the harder it is to have agood control over them in the beginning (especially when hitting an enemy fleet right in the beginning). To keep the overview, what compromise for deploying fleet would you suggest for a beginner (obv. with more experience this becomes less of a problem).
o) Speaking of submarines. Damn you all. They usually get sunk once they surface and launch. Sometimes a pack of two is able to fire not more than two missiles. I am not quite sure what the exact reason is for that, but I have some ideas:
- Airbase nearby, immediately launching fighters
- Carrier nearby (btw: If carrier is in anti-sub mode and detects my subs, will I see the carrier as well!?)
- "Nukes in the Dark" -- that I really hate, some players fire nukes into the usual spots where subs are hiding.
Are they really firing random or did they detect me? Ofc I keep them into passive sonar mode.
Any suggestion for a learning person on how to protect subs better? hm, maybe giving Carrier protection?
o) Yes and Carriers are a problem too. If I can get them out of reach, they are usually fine. But more often they get entangled very early and are unable to escape (at least not without severe casualties)
So, basically fleet management is my major problem. And this obviously is a key to the game. I would be grateful for any simple pointers and strategy how I can slowly improve my game.
TIA,
snwcrsh
Basic Improvement for Beginners
Moderator: Defcon moderators
Well, bert_the_turtle has a solution to your sub-related woes - helping you to keep them out of radar range.
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bert_the_turtle
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About the fleet size: I stick to fleets of three, all of the same type. That's 12 fleets in total. Some players tend to group their subs in smaller units, and if you keep your surface navy close together anyway, groups of 4 aren't too bad either. It doesn't buy you a lot in terms of micromanagement; you'll still have your 44 bombers to care for individually, so it doesn't matter too much whether you have 12 or 9 fleets to manage. Exception is speed defcon, of course.
The biggest danger with small fleets is that if you are not careful, your ships will overlap in combat; and when one ship is destroyed and another ship is too close by, it will sink, too.
Of course, there is the occasional single carrier used as a fighter relay station for long range missions.
About the subs: you either need to surface them where you can be reasonably sure they won't be detected immediately (see KingAl's post) or where you are sure they won't be attacked. Some players use one sub as a canary: when they want to launch from a group, they switch one sub to launch mode and submerge it again quickly without launching a missile. If the enemy CAN spot it, he will be able to see it for a limited time; it is likely that it will draw some fire in this case. If it doesn't (watch closely for the small explosions that mark weapon hits), the launch spot should be safe.
I may be wrong, but if your subs are in passive mode and a carrier in anti-sub mode is above them, all you see is explosions and vanishing subs. If your surfaced subs vanish fast, they're usually under regular naval fire from bombers; surfaced subs have a good chance to see the carrier that is depthcharging them. Little known fact: Ships detected by subs in active sonar mode can be selected as target for bombers and subs in passive mode. A very risky strategy I've seen is to use all of your subs as scouts and strike force in active sonar mode right at the start, hoping the enemy first launches his bombers from the carriers and switches to anti-sub mode only later.
About the carriers: launch your bombers in advance, before you make contact with the enemy. Keep them in an area where they can fire on every ship that enters your radar range. Keep most carriers in figher launch mode and launch them to protect your bombers, to scout, and to down enemy bombers.
I usually get destroyed quickly, so you should be careful about follwing my advice
The biggest danger with small fleets is that if you are not careful, your ships will overlap in combat; and when one ship is destroyed and another ship is too close by, it will sink, too.
Of course, there is the occasional single carrier used as a fighter relay station for long range missions.
About the subs: you either need to surface them where you can be reasonably sure they won't be detected immediately (see KingAl's post) or where you are sure they won't be attacked. Some players use one sub as a canary: when they want to launch from a group, they switch one sub to launch mode and submerge it again quickly without launching a missile. If the enemy CAN spot it, he will be able to see it for a limited time; it is likely that it will draw some fire in this case. If it doesn't (watch closely for the small explosions that mark weapon hits), the launch spot should be safe.
I may be wrong, but if your subs are in passive mode and a carrier in anti-sub mode is above them, all you see is explosions and vanishing subs. If your surfaced subs vanish fast, they're usually under regular naval fire from bombers; surfaced subs have a good chance to see the carrier that is depthcharging them. Little known fact: Ships detected by subs in active sonar mode can be selected as target for bombers and subs in passive mode. A very risky strategy I've seen is to use all of your subs as scouts and strike force in active sonar mode right at the start, hoping the enemy first launches his bombers from the carriers and switches to anti-sub mode only later.
About the carriers: launch your bombers in advance, before you make contact with the enemy. Keep them in an area where they can fire on every ship that enters your radar range. Keep most carriers in figher launch mode and launch them to protect your bombers, to scout, and to down enemy bombers.
I usually get destroyed quickly, so you should be careful about follwing my advice
Try to play in some of the defcon school games that occasionally take place. That might also help you.
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shinygerbil
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bert_the_turtle wrote:Some players use one sub as a canary: when they want to launch from a group, they switch one sub to launch mode and submerge it again quickly without launching a missile. If the enemy CAN spot it, he will be able to see it for a limited time; it is likely that it will draw some fire in this case. If it doesn't (watch closely for the small explosions that mark weapon hits), the launch spot should be safe.
I saw this, and my first thought was "yes, that makes sense", but then I thought some more. If the enemy notices your sub but simply doesn't have enough time to send bombers your way, you've just basically said "HI, HERE ARE MY SUBS, SEND YOUR CARRIERS THIS WAY". So, I'd be wary of using this tactic.
Here is my signature. Make of it what you will.
shinygerbil wrote:bert_the_turtle wrote:Some players use one sub as a canary: when they want to launch from a group, they switch one sub to launch mode and submerge it again quickly without launching a missile. If the enemy CAN spot it, he will be able to see it for a limited time; it is likely that it will draw some fire in this case. If it doesn't (watch closely for the small explosions that mark weapon hits), the launch spot should be safe.
I saw this, and my first thought was "yes, that makes sense", but then I thought some more. If the enemy notices your sub but simply doesn't have enough time to send bombers your way, you've just basically said "HI, HERE ARE MY SUBS, SEND YOUR CARRIERS THIS WAY". So, I'd be wary of using this tactic.
Sounds like a good diversion to me.
oh that post... 
It's all experience I noticed. So actually very hard to explain. Play and Watch, that sure helped me. Although, speaking about watching, that spectator dilemma annoys me. I like to invite new people to spectate my games -- but dorks are seem to increase. Usually i wait till game is full (I play diplomacy mostly) and then close spec slots, if specs are already there... they can stay. or are kicked...
but gee, i wish host could kick specs ingame. this is really necessary. ah eh. wrong thread
It's all experience I noticed. So actually very hard to explain. Play and Watch, that sure helped me. Although, speaking about watching, that spectator dilemma annoys me. I like to invite new people to spectate my games -- but dorks are seem to increase. Usually i wait till game is full (I play diplomacy mostly) and then close spec slots, if specs are already there... they can stay. or are kicked...
but gee, i wish host could kick specs ingame. this is really necessary. ah eh. wrong thread
What is important to remember is that there is no one "right" way, so if you are having problems with doing something maybe you should try something else.
For example, while many accept the "small fleets, same units" approach for naval warfare, I almost always use a six fleet mixed setup. I rarely do well if I do otherwise (except in team games). While I'm certainly not the best player I would say that I am a competent one, so in my case my system works.
Just find something you are comfortable with, and work to perfect it. Once you find out what style works for you, it won't take you long at all to setup.
For example, while many accept the "small fleets, same units" approach for naval warfare, I almost always use a six fleet mixed setup. I rarely do well if I do otherwise (except in team games). While I'm certainly not the best player I would say that I am a competent one, so in my case my system works.
Just find something you are comfortable with, and work to perfect it. Once you find out what style works for you, it won't take you long at all to setup.
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Rising Thunder MVP
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Radiant Caligula
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Rising Thunder MVP wrote:Mixed fleets make sense and so do subs in groups of five or six. Why? Because when you are using subs on sonar mode, groups of 6 provide a good comprimise between surface area and ease of control. Also they are less likely to sink when attacking ships.
Pretty much any setup is "playable" as long as the player is competent on how to use all his different pieces. If you're ok with mixed fleet, no one is stopping you. However, if 2 completely matched players faced off in a fleet battle where one used mixed fleet and the other used smaller, uniform units, I'm quite confident the latter would win. It's simple math really. Having carriers in the front line will most certainly get them killed and at the same time your mixed battelships are packing significantly less firepower than tight units. Carriers should be removed from the main battle altogether and the player who manages to protect his carriers will most certainly win.
The key to winning fleet battles are not carriers in themselves but their precious cargo and platforming. Launching tight bomber formations are much much easier to do from uniform squads. Not only that, but launching bombers in itself should take place in good distance from the frontline. If you mix fleet and have enemy battleships within combat range you risk not only lose ur carriers before you get to send any planes off, but if you manage to switch to bomber mode while being chased by battleships you will probably lose most of your bombers right away.
As for subs in large groups: If you are having trouble microing single or double subs, I guess it's ok to set 4-5-6 subs. But if you are a fast clicker and know how to control multiple pieces in the heat of battle, I'd strongly advice against it. First of all: subs in multiplayer should not IMO be used in the offensive frontline. They are far too valuable to waste in fleet encounters. Subs should sneak in and be positioned to act as counter-strikes or "ball breaker" moves such as the magnum launch EU<-->RUSS. And if you meet senior players and they (most likely will) discover 6 subs in a front line, the only thing they have to do is drop 2-3 nukes on them and poof goes 30 of your nukes. Not to mention the distribution of firepower that you won't be able to match with large groups as opposed to single/double subs. Also, if you want to nuke Russia from India with 6 subs you wont even get close enough to hit Moscow with the whole group. And the lack of flexibility with large sub groups makes them very vulnerable to depth charges. If you try to sneak up on someone and they discover your group of 6 I guarantee you you will lose most of them, if not all.
I'm sure you knew most of this, but I hope this can give a hint to new players why they should not mix fleet or use large sub groups. Still my opinion, but an experienced one.
THIS is my last 2 hrs of internet and if I won't be able to make any new posts, I wish you all a good summer and the best of luck...
cheers
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