Droughtwinia 1.05! (ie, ILB fix)

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Postby thefrogger » Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:19 am

Just played this for the first time, and found it quite fun--especially Balaal! Thanks so much for making it!

Then I played it again, and saw something I missed the first time. "Armor 3.0 granted". And now I'm confused. Balaal was a total blast and appropriately difficult without armor. With the armor there, a player could just waltz it up behind all the defenses for an instant victory. But other than that "cheat", there doesn't seem to be a need for it. The level is wonderfully designed for play without it. And yet, the research is granted immediately before the level with a disclaimer like "this will come in handy", as if you had something in mind to use it for. May I ask what the intention was behind giving the player armor? (And assuming the answer to that is yes, will you answer the question too?) ;-)

I also tried an interesting variant that was even more challenging, (and also w/o armor) which was killing the spam *last*, only after everything else was wiped out. I found I had to resort to airstrikes to complete that one though.
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Postby The GoldFish » Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:54 am

Thanks. Hopefully you've already played Stricken and therefore got most of the jokes. And yes, I did, in fact, have things in mind for the Armour.

Mainly, it's there to horribly exploit an AI thing that when red darwinians are without any AItargets in a level, but still with an AI unit presant, they *all* charge your gun turrets as soon as you deploy them... which makes for an interesting show.

'This will come in handy' is code for 'use this a bit!' - because obviously, if the player doesn't, the red darwinians will just all stand there, which wasn't really the effect I was after - I really wanted the reds to charge, BUT, without using AI targets, as I was finding putting them in seemingly dumbed darwinian AI down somehow. If you did deploy it at the top to snipe the spam, odds are, you'd either succeed (good for you!), get a red darwinian army come and kill you and have them steal the turret which will annoy you loads later on, or have the spam go off and kill your dgs, and then the same thing happen. At most, I was expecting the player to deploy a few turrets up the ramp to try and help defend his spawn points and darwinians better against spiders and such, and annoy you when they friendly fire your squads.

Plus, I didn't really trust level 0 armour for the end sequence.

Oh, and I ran out of stuff to give the player.

Droughtwinia wasn't made to be balenced, it wan't made to have a story, it was just made! It was very 'production line' style in construction, which I've been getting better at with the work I've done on things like MS and CW. To that end, the majority of it was made in a day.
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Postby thefrogger » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:49 am

Thanks for the detailed info, that's all interesting stuff. I never actually tried deploying any armor. Sounds like I would have had a surprise waiting if I did! By your description, maybe even the easy-looking top strike doesn't actually work out that well.

Interesting that by not noticing the armor was even available, it sounds like it made things easier for me. :)

Also interesting is that the scattered red DGs become one of the more dangerous adversaries for the advancing squad simply because they're so spread out. I gave you credit for doing that on purpose. ;-)

As for Stricken, I had previously given up on it because I didn't really care for the single squaddie aspect. Bolstered however by renewed faith in your design efforts after the exceptional Balaal experience, I gave it another try today and got through everything except the last level. But you won't like how I did it. I still didn't warm to the single squaddie and the prospects of retrying the difficult levels over and over. The wuss aspect didn't appeal to me either, not because of the name, but because I'd feel I didn't really get the full experience.

Of course, what I wound up doing was even less of the intended experience, but it made it more enjoyable for me. I edited the mission files to give me three squaddies. Everything but Gladiator was much too easy that way, (and even Gladiator completed the first attempt--barely), so I'll probably try to replay it someday soon with two squaddies. Maybe I'll even have the patience someday for the single version, but I really miss both the grenade firepower and the ability to get a second chance after mistakes and near misses cost a squad member but not the whole unit.

Oh, and that "defend the yard" level I think I just squeaked by with too. That was a superb experience that I considered Stricken's Best of Show. Kudos.
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Postby The GoldFish » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:54 am

Yes, well, you see, Stricken was 'designed' so it was challenging *to me* while I was *designing and testing* it, (read, someone playing each level over and over again, many times, in a short space of time) - However, I feel like the last level is a total let down now. At first, it was an impossible concept, I couldn't see how anyone could ever achieve it. And now it's a real thing that anyone can do (or at least hopefully?).

By the way, when I say designed, what I really mean was, I bunged some stuff together, played it a bit, tweaked it a little, maybe even changed it a lot - it was almost always in responce to how it played for me - almost all the odd sidey bits in Gladiator actually have a roughly defined gameplay purpose for how I play the level. This is *probably* why I find it a leeetle bit easier than other people - I designed it for me to be badass at. Either way, my design process is, get something that's the right sort of shape, and then cut little bits off and stick little bits on until it's almost exactly what you want - I feel alot of modders might not play their levels enough when testing them (and frankly, I don't blame them). Balaal was literally that, I just bunged a load of triffids, a few piles of virii, spiders and a spam cube under half a fuel generator, and called it a level.

Stricken took months of on and off work. Droughtwinia took a day (more or less).

Having only one squadie isn't actually being as bad off as it sounds (even without the increased laser rate, I took down a spam cube one on one in insurrection, though died along with it after hurling my airstrike marker at the end of a torrent of grenades), nor is it much of a loss of firepower, depending of course on your choice of targets. The problem is, of course, if you miss...

As a note towards 'near misses', In my 'guide to gladiator' video, I had no fewer than 4 near misses. (and one was in fact a double) (note that near misses counts as, actually getting hurt). Knowing how to avoid instant death reduces the need for all those sluggish extra squadies - mainly it's changing direction suddenly and shooting the thing trying to eat you in the face. You really do have alot more health in Stricken - in fact, you move a third faster, have just under 3 and a half times more health and fire just under three times faster, kind of like having 3 squadies but with less explosive potential, making it less of a 'stand far away and bomb spiders' and more of a 'run around and hope a spider doesn't eat me'

To be honest, if I had expected people to actively kill spiders, I probably would have lowered their health in stats. I expected everyone to go for the things that were actually a threat even if they kept on their toes constantly ("ants" and "virii"). The idea wasn't to kill every enemy in the level - if you try that you'll almost undoubtably end up dead and having to restart. I would actually go against what's probably popular opinion and say that Retribution is the toughest level, not gladiator, too, mainly because of a bug relating to centipede kill zones, which I think is the main reason for 'sudden death' in that level.

If you were really having to restart every level through losing your squadie, then no, it wouldn't be much fun at all - if you find you don't have to restart, and really get into the dodging thing, then it's probably the most fun mod ever (it is for me). I certainly don't maintain that Stricken is for everyone, because obviously, it isn't, but for me, noting what you said in the insurrection thread, for me, *this* is Darwinia :P

It does worry me sometimes that a lot of people play Stricken and just stop midway through, and then don't *say* anything. I know alot of people think it's (too?) hard - I think in places it's far too easy. Not a lot of people really reported back...
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Postby thefrogger » Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:55 am

The GoldFish wrote:Balaal was literally that, I just bunged a load of triffids, a few piles of virii, spiders and a spam cube under half a fuel generator, and called it a level.

On the contrary, putting the whole thing on an incline, leaving one side a little bit more open, having an obstruction on that side, the combination of enemies themselves... it all adds up to gameplay.

Now perhaps some of this is luck, but I suspect it's more a matter of instincts developed during the months of work on Stricken (and just playing Darwinia in general). Some things just wind up being more fun, and this was one of them.

The GoldFish wrote:Having only one squadie isn't actually being as bad off as it sounds... nor is it much of a loss of firepower, depending of course on your choice of targets. The problem is, of course, if you miss...

I still miss a lot apparently. :)

Note also that I didn't say "loss of firepower", but loss of "grenade" firepower. That's the part I miss, but I'll admit I'm not really playing the running and dodging style the same way. I like killing stuff. I like killing spiders. I do recognize though that Stricken is a vastly different game. Right now, I can't say for certain whether I just didn't "get it", or whether I understood but just didn't enjoy the different mechanics. My self-preservation instincts resist charging through infested territory.

The GoldFish wrote:'run around and hope a spider doesn't eat me'

The word "hope" catches what I'm resistant too, even if that was unintentional. It's pretty hard to keep track of everything in Darwinia's view scheme, and so while I can keep moving to try and avoid getting pounced on, it really feels more like hope than an active defense. If I were a real person in that situation, I'd much rather sit back and lob grenades. :)

OTOH, this is part of why I enjoyed Balaal, because that strategy obviously wouldn't work. Being essentially forced to charge through, and developing a strategy to do so successfully was very rewarding, and perhaps if I approach Stricken with the same mindset I'll have a better experience. I'll eventually give it a try again I suspect.
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Postby The GoldFish » Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:49 am

Well, let me put it like this.

I just spent the last, must be an hour+ (time flies), attempting to defeat *4* soul destroyers *simultaneously* in valhalla arena. I knew this was possible as I had defeated 2, and 3, soul destroyers, also, simultaneously.

On a whim.

I was recently successful this feat. And this is the relavent IRC log:

<The_GoldFish> \o/
<The_GoldFish> *fucking torro* >_<
<The_GoldFish> my poor broken fingers
<The_GoldFish> fuck, I think I'm going to feint
<The_GoldFish> hehe
<elDiablo> what happened?
<The_GoldFish> me VS 4 4 Spi;oes
<The_GoldFish> ,e wom
<The_GoldFish> tjat#s basoca;y tje reqioreoe,tm
<The_GoldFish> that agag
<The_GoldFish> fucl
<The_GoldFish> >_<
<The_GoldFish> I'm breathing
<The_GoldFish> but it doesn't man I get iar
<elDiablo> yes, i dont understand you, go fix your hand then tell me :P
<The_GoldFish> scumes
<The_GoldFish> eme
<The_GoldFish> ..
<elDiablo> brb!
<The_GoldFish> right
<The_GoldFish> yes
<The_GoldFish> oxygen!
<The_GoldFish> got some of that now
<The_GoldFish> hehe

Basically.

I almost died.

It
Was
Awesome
.
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Postby Miral » Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:57 am

Maybe I'm just dumb, but how do you actually defeat Soul Destroyers with a squaddie? In the main game I always just used Armour. In the last mission of SS, as far as I could tell I never even made a dent in it.
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Postby Rampage Starfire » Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:55 pm

The GoldFish wrote: 'run around and hope a spider doesn't eat me'


I personally feel (as many will have guessed by my posts in the Stricken thread) that spiders are the single most difficult enemy in the game, except for perhaps the Soul Destroyers (nasty flying buggers). in Stricken it wasn't that you couldn't dodge one, but you had so many of them that running through doesn't work because if one doesn't get you the other 20 will.

The GoldFish wrote:To be honest, if I had expected people to actively kill spiders, I probably would have lowered their health in stats. I expected everyone to go for the things that were actually a threat even if they kept on their toes constantly ("ants" and "virii").


Ants and Virii aren't a threat unless you don't pay attention to what is near your squaddie(s), and you know when to make a tactical retreat.

The GoldFish wrote:If you were really having to restart every level through losing your squadie, then no, it wouldn't be much fun at all - if you find you don't have to restart, and really get into the dodging thing, then it's probably the most fun mod ever (it is for me).


The problem with trying to dodge in Darwinia is that the controls you need to shoot and the controls you need to move are the same controls and you need to be able to switch very (VERY) quickly to have a hope of dodging anything
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Postby The GoldFish » Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:18 pm

Spiders are dumb, if 1 misses you, the other 20 will too because they all target you in the same way (the 'hope' was a very... Modern UK Top Gear esque hope). You can run rings around spiders for an hour, and none of them will hit you. The only level in game I usually spend any length of time killing Spiders on is Retribution, because they start laying spores.

In my books, retreat is the last acceptable alternative, especially where there are spiders presant and immidiete backtracking is a 'bad idea'. Where possible, moving directly towards any source of danger, and then kicking it's ass, is the correct solution. Indicating that being threatened by virii/ants through ineptitude, I think, isn't really correct in that case. If you're standing still trying to shoot a bunch of (would otherwise be dangerous) virii from far away so they can't kill you, and get jumped on by a spider, I'd say that was because you were staying back and not just getting in there ahd killing the virii.

and

Yep, that's right.

Bear in mind you're talking to the *author* of Stricken, whom probably advocates the things he's talking about as viable gameplay concepts because he actually does them. I can pretty much assure you that dodging works.

Did no one watch the video I recorded of Gladiator? - How long does it take other people to complete Gladiator? Under 11 minutes? Was it a *chore*, or did you enjoy it?

RE how do you kill Soul Destroyers with a squadie. It's basically like that bull fighting game. Only, instead of a red piece of cloth, you use a rocket... or move, very, quickly. The problem is that Soul Destroyers don't show damage, but, any time they shed polygons means they've taken damage, so you just have to keep at it.
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Postby xander » Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:55 pm

The GoldFish wrote:Did no one watch the video I recorded of Gladiator? - How long does it take other people to complete Gladiator? Under 11 minutes? Was it a *chore*, or did you enjoy it?

I liked Gladiator, though it did take several attempts before I finished it. When I finally did beat it, the winning run way maybe 15 minutes. Even with all of the dodging, the virii pose a problem. On the other hand, the last time I played SS was with version 1.2, with a very bad framerate. It has probably improved since then, and the level may be easier.

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Postby Rampage Starfire » Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:30 pm

Ok I admit it wasn't usually the spiders that finished me off it was a virus because I was too busy trying to run away from teh dang spiders! Thus the not paying attention part, if the spiders didn't crawl down the vertical walls and ambush ya I might have an easier time of it
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Postby The GoldFish » Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:41 pm

Yeah it really sucked about the (previous?) low mac performance messing stuff up. Not having a mac (or even a slow PC), and even if I did, not having a mac copy of the game, really makes creating a level that could be enjoyed at an acceptable performance level by someone who plays it the same way I do, or indeed however they choose to, whilst still posing a challenge quite difficult. I lowered my resolution significantly to record gameplay, due to the extra CPU stresses involved. I'm sure you enjoyed either iteration of Ghost_Capital?

If Stricken 2 (dev disk etc) is ever to see the light of day, I don't really don't know about cross platform support.
-- The GoldFish - member of former GIT and commander in chief of GALLAHAD. You could have done something, but it's been fixed. The end. Also, play bestgameever!
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Postby xander » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:46 pm

The GoldFish wrote:I'm sure you enjoyed either iteration of Ghost_Capital?

Hated it. Fortunately, I got through it on the first try.

The GoldFish wrote:If Stricken 2 (dev disk etc) is ever to see the light of day, I don't really don't know about cross platform support.

I would imagine that, with the new Intel based Macs, cross platform support would not be that difficult. However, I wouldn't fault you for not releasing Mac versions.

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Postby LLamaBoy » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:52 pm

Don't forget hating Linux too!
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Postby skull13 » Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:45 pm

It wont download. It just goes to a text file with funky stuff

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