Fog of War

[Nova Cygni]

I don't like Multiwinia.

There is too much luck involved. Although a good player would win, say, a best of 15 games, a good player could never bank on winning any particular game. Yeah I'm sure I'm missing the point if i compare it to Defcon, but Defcon to me is a near perfect strategy game, and all the tension is based on the unknown. In Defcon, especially in duel games, the better player will win 95% of the time, the only luck coming into it being the slight dis/advantage of your territory. In Multiwinia you are obliged to open crates, the results of which are not just a slight advantage or a slight disadvantege, but massive game swinging events. OK that's great that people who aren't good players can hope to win against someone more experienced. But when a game is so heavily based on luck there is no incentive to become a better player. It makes it impossible to analyse your own or your opponents play, since random events are happening all the time - its like trying to learn to be a better pool player while someone shakes the table, as there is no way to know if your shot was good or not. And at the end of a game of Multiwinia, you don't know whether to congratulate your opponent or not, as he possibly won though luck - whereas at the end of a Defcon duel I can rest assured that I won or lost because my strategy was better or worse than my opponent. On winning a game of Multiwinia, I never have a warm sense of "whew, what a game, but I won because I was a little bit better than my opponent".

So anyway, I can only think of one way of remedying Multiwinia, which is to add the fog-of-war. Then true strategy can be implemented, with decoys, feints, devious ploys and backstabs and the all important fear of the unknown. To me, it is so important, even the life-blood of tense and entertaining gameplay. And with it could come some actually relevant crates as well - ones which affect your ability to see the enemy, such as watch towers, or "spywinians" to send on recon missions etc. And the pointless crates we have at the moment - like speed up/down and mega rage, and others which are too powerful or randomly strike down someone who really doesn't deserve it - can be totally done away with, as actual strategy will be allowed to flourish. (But I can see why they added them - because the game is a boring battle of attrition if there isn't random luck thrown in.)

Yes tell me I'm missing the point, but think for a few minutes about how the game would play with a fog-of-war, and tell me it wouldn't be a better game.

[Cyan.]

Sure a fog-of-war would add a new element and I am not against it, tho I like it withous as well, because you can see your opponents moves and react on it. And sure crates bring luck sometimes insurmountable luck, but most of the time I think a good player can still win because, a lot of skill is hidden in the way you react to these changes made. Plus you have crate drops weighted. Say for instance someone plants a turret on a key point, forgot that point and change your strategy, force him to defend what he has to defend and then attack somewhere else. I win turrets from the enemy quite a lot they are big obstacle, but you can do it.

[MarvintheParanoidAndroid]

Yes tell me I'm missing the point, but think for a few minutes about how the game would play with a fog-of-war, and tell me it wouldn't be a better game.

1. You're missing the point.
2. It wouldn't be a better game.

[Xocrates]

1. You're missing the point.
2. It wouldn't be a better game.

QFT!

It wouldn't be a better game, it would be a different game.

I got to be honest here: I understand and even agree with most of your points. However having been in the beta since it started I can truthfully tell you this: Multiwinia was not designed for the "harcore" demographic. It's an instant fun game that everyone can enjoy in a 10 minute break.

[MrBunsy]

You could turn crates off, or just have basic crates. That would leave a Multiwinia which is still very much the same game, but with far less luck.

However, I rather like the pure chance element - it's common to a lot of board and card games after all. It requires a different kind of skill, and risk-analysis to overcome.

[bert_the_turtle]

While I don't want to bash the fog of war idea (I think it's great for gameplay as an option, but it probably doesn't fit the overall design/vision/blubb), I have to disagree on the skill bit. Even with default settings, if one player is more skilled than his opponent, he has a much higher chance of winning. Sure, there always is the chance that your spawn position gets infected with Evilinians right away and you're out, no matter how good you are. But apart from those game-crippling random events, skill matters a lot. You need to know how to use the powerups you get correctly.

[Nova Cygni]

I got to be honest here: I understand and even agree with most of your points. However having been in the beta since it started I can truthfully tell you this: Multiwinia was not designed for the "harcore" demographic. It's an instant fun game that everyone can enjoy in a 10 minute break.

If I wanted a 10 minute break I would play Peggle. Considering that this game has taken considerable time to be created by what most of us here consider to be the best game makers around at the moment, it seems a crying shame that all it amounts to is "a 10 minute break" game. And, after playing for a few weeks, you can see quite clearly that there are no "soft core" gamers playing it, we are mostly experienced players who are looking for a challenging game (just look at Cyan's post above, though his comments are valid they aren't exactly the tactics of a newcomer).

[Xocrates]

My only issue with your points is that you seem to somehow be offended because the game is not what you wanted it to be.

Multiwinia is not for the "hardcore", and quite honestly I'm as disappointed as you are, however I'm well aware that a) that was not the point, b) despite this it is still possible to make "serious" multiwinia games, namely by changing the crate settings .

Fog of war would add absolutely nothing to the game. There are way too many games in the market that would allow me to play like that, I don't see why Multiwinia needs to be one, and more importantly I don't see why it's a "crying shame" that IV didn't make it so.

[Culex]

Well, if it's going to be implemented, then only as an option. Not everybody likes a fog of war. In fact, the lack of such is something that makes it much easier for newbies to get into the genre.

And of course, you can turn off crates if you like.

[Johnis]

The game is nice. not a hardcore strategy game. it has no relationship with defcon totally. defcon is by far a very good strategy game and a lot better than other comercial strategy games.
Multiwinia is a game in progress . I think we should give it some time and some chance.

[TomCat39]

I'd like to add, the chance factor is really a nice addition.

Instead of playing chess (Defcon or other RTS games) you play backgammon.

I actually really like the chance factor thrown in there. And if you want the true hardcore, disable crates. Then chance is removed.

Personally, I get very bored with pure skill because you always know the outcome if you know your opponent and their play. Here, I could play the same person 100 times, and every game would be different thus keeping entertained for much longer with only one opponent. I don't have to constantly search for new opponents just to have a different experience.

I truely feel this game has the proper balance of everything so that it's always fresh and fun. You really never know how a game is going to turn out.

And it has a lot of settings so you can make that overly serious game that takes 5 hours to complete, or you can have it light and uplifting for a fast 10 minutes.

And soon to be supported for modding. Man, what a sweat deal IV has made for us.

[Pinky]

I don't like Multiwinia.

If you don't like it, then why play it?

[allen]

Indeed, why would he? I don't play games I dislike.

But anyways Multiwinia doesn't seem to be your type of game. I think you are expecting something else entirely.

Remedy MW entirely you say? Just as others said, you are missing the point.

I cant even be bothered to explain why I believe fog of war would not be a good idea for this game.

[TheRileyDuo]

I got to be honest here: I understand and even agree with most of your points. However having been in the beta since it started I can truthfully tell you this: Multiwinia was not designed for the "harcore" demographic. It's an instant fun game that everyone can enjoy in a 10 minute break.

If I wanted a 10 minute break I would play Peggle. Considering that this game has taken considerable time to be created by what most of us here consider to be the best game makers around at the moment, it seems a crying shame that all it amounts to is "a 10 minute break" game. And, after playing for a few weeks, you can see quite clearly that there are no "soft core" gamers playing it, we are mostly experienced players who are looking for a challenging game (just look at Cyan's post above, though his comments are valid they aren't exactly the tactics of a newcomer).

What I think you're trying to say is that IV is not as advertised as other games, so the community is more skewed towards more people who look deeper into the video game indestry. Those people also have generally played a lot of other games before finding an IV game. But as to say that Peggle is a better casual game: you would be completly right. Peggle is probably infinitly more addictive. Peggle also lacks a creative vision that keeps me immersed in the game. The stereotypical light video game background music that plays throughout the track, the huge interface, and the high pitched sounds reminds me that I'm playing "just another game". I can lose focus at any time, and I won't ever lose the context of the game. "I'm playing a game where I shoot a ball at pegs; in my room". But Multiwinia is different.
In Multiwinia, the visuals all add up to something more meaningful. I'm playing war with digital beings. Every aspect of the game supports it. When I'm in a match, I'll typically come up with a reason why I'm doing what I'm doing. "The Red guys have found a huge supply of rocket fuel here, and now they need to capture specific points from the Yellow guys, in order to construct drilling points later." Rocket Riot excels at this kind of "multiplayer narrative". The whole goal of the gamemode is completly open to dramatic interpretation.
So while the strategy may not be as deep as other games, I can completly immerse myself in Multiwinia, due to the artistic vision the game supplys. So I guess they can both be considered "soft-core", as the learning curve is shallow(ish) for both games. I find both games to be in completly different catagories, though.

Anyways, my original intention of this post was to discuss uncertain in competition. Games that reward the master of disguise are great. They're like magic tricks. You convince your friend that the coin was in the other hand. You managed to fake out the defender trying to block your run. You're subs were never really over there the entire time. These are great games of wit, and trickery. However, all of these have something I call a "great reveal". The coin was really in the other hand. You really wanted to run this way the entire time. Your extra airbase was tucked in a great location, away from common scouting routes. These reveals require great risks, and generally have luxurious rewards. However, Fog Of War Multiwinia would never have this big reveal. No matter where you go you can expect Multiwinians there. The important question is "how many?" Since there are fewer tactical options than DEFCON, scouting would be a ton easier. Simply put, if the enemy is not in one place, he's in 1 or 2 other places. Fog Of War quickly becomes less useful as a way to increase tension. Finally, the addition of Fog Of War does not fit the canon of Multiwinia. Besides one very large example (The WMD), the Multiwinians have not developed any of their own technology. In Darwinia, you can see the entire stage from the very outset. I don't think the Multiwinians are devoted enough to figure cloaking technology. They're much more interested in weapons, then something with less straight forward battle capabilities.

[Cooper42]

I got to be honest here: I understand and even agree with most of your points. However having been in the beta since it started I can truthfully tell you this: Multiwinia was not designed for the "harcore" demographic. It's an instant fun game that everyone can enjoy in a 10 minute break.

If I wanted a 10 minute break I would play Peggle. Considering that this game has taken considerable time to be created by what most of us here consider to be the best game makers around at the moment, it seems a crying shame that all it amounts to is "a 10 minute break" game. And, after playing for a few weeks, you can see quite clearly that there are no "soft core" gamers playing it, we are mostly experienced players who are looking for a challenging game (just look at Cyan's post above, though his comments are valid they aren't exactly the tactics of a newcomer).

Wrong. If I want a quick blast of arcade action which tickles both my tactical thinking brain cells and my funny bone, Multiwinia is the best option.

Multiwinia is a bit like worms, a quick game accessible enough that lots of people can play, full of insane power ups and often hilarious chaos, but where better players will usually win.

Multiwinia is just right in that way, harcore competitive types might not like it because of that. Good. I say. I don;t want that type of game, I want some quick action with a bit of unpredictability thrown in (the predictability of many RTSes is what bores me with them so much.)

I went back to Defcon recently, after a year of not playing (no proper net connection) and forgot just how immensely hardcore it is. I could remember the best tactics, and just how much micromanagement it takes, but against better players, I had not a chance. I could see exactly what I should be doing, but wasn't able to, or saw it too late, and could see just how screwed I was.

That's not fun. Multiwinia is fun.