Ideas and questions

[alfiethecool]

Questions:
Will the whole wired systems stuff still be in?
Is mission limited to building or is there still a proceduarlly generated city?
Will it be moddable?

Ok, first idea:

You can choose whether or not to go on the mission, if you do go on the mission then you can switch from first person to coordination mode (where you can see the whole level and tell people to do stuff) and it would allow you to have more detailed interaction, but you could get caught then arrested. You could escape by having a backup team just for rescuing you or attempting to overpower the guards but it would greatly damage your reputation.

Second idea:

Vehicle modification, vehicles should have electronic systems depending on complexity, ie bicycle would have none, planes would have lots. You should be able to install sensors, computers and tracking beacons on vehicles. Ability to attach actuators to manual input systems (eg steering wheel and pedals in car) for when there are no built in electronic systems.

Third idea:

Complete sandbox, missions should be just that: A mission. No limits on how you do, ie can't leave building, but rather employer may pay less or more depending on how quickly/stealthily it is done. This would allow for methods that are not possible with restrictions, ie instead of hacking password, just capture and interrogate the admin when they go home, or a parachute drop onto the roof of a sky scraper to get in.

Fourth idea:

Computers should be linked with actuall cables and stuff, so you can tap into it to record data for decryption later or cut the line and wait for a technician to come to repair it, then steal his uniform and sneak into high security areas. Radios should transmit on a frequency, if you know it then you can listen in and use voice faking software to say stuff like "This was just a drill." or to fake radio responses when they check to see if a guard is there.

Fith, final idea:

Programming, not just on computers but also on other devices, ie controllers for explosives. High level drag and drop GUI for players with little knowledge of programming or for quick programs to say activate a radio transmitter at a certain time or when an email is recieved which equals some text, C based language for players who can program. C based language would be useful for making hacking programs (I assume that it will be somewhat like uplink?).

[naufrago]

Questions:
Will the whole wired systems stuff still be in?
Is mission limited to building or is there still a proceduarlly generated city?
Will it be moddable?

1) The wire stuff is the system used by every mechanism in the game, with some lua scripting for the more complex systems. They re-wrote a chunk of code to make use of that system since it's more intuitive and easier to manipulate than what they had. I doubt they would take it out.

2) The game was designed around the idea of a procedural city generator, and it still seems to be an integral component of the game. How the player will interact with the city and how limited or free you are is unknown at this point. Couldn't hurt to offer ideas in this regard.

3) The game is being designed with modding in mind. They want the tools to be powerful enough to allow a user to create most anything they could want, but simple enough that just about anyone who wants to can create stuff. Some of the Subversion blog posts talk about their design philosophy in greater detail.


I like some of your ideas, but I'd like to comment on the fifth one. The current plan is to allow the player to use lua scripts to run devices. It's based on C++, but it's more user friendly- the user is given pre-defined functions that have pre-defined inputs and effects, and the user has no access to the coding that makes up the functions. From those functions, more complex scripts can be made, and when combined with the wire system already in place, you could make some pretty elaborate devices. The 17th subversion blog post has a good description of how it would be done. Well, I think it's the 17th one. They're all worth reading, regardless.

I like your idea for a drag and drop option for some of the more basic and common scripts. Using an explosive as an example, it would be nice to have an easy to fill in thing like "Countdown from ________ secs/mins when (trigger mechanism). When countdown is complete, evaluate to 0/1," for a timer component, and "Explode if ________ evaluates to 0/1," for the explosive component. It would make things simple for when you don't want to deal with lua script directly for simple devices.

[ScifiSpirit]

This kind of versatility is what I'd like to see. But I think development times would be too long for such high amount of options. And they have to be fun too. So I'm not sure how many options we get (perhaps more though modding), but I'm fairly sure that they will be unique at least.

[naufrago]

I found this in part 17 of the subversion blogs that is relevant to your second idea. In this quote, he explains the simple circuit diagram for a sliding door mechanism.

The way it works is quite simple. The two motion sensors have a Circuit Pin, which carries a value. A value of 1 means “yes”, and a value of 0 means “no”. When the motion sensors detect movement in their zone, they set their pin to 1, and when there is no movement they set their pins to 0. Similarly, the Actuators are controlled by a Circuit Pin – set it to 1 to make the actuators open, and set it to 0 to make them close. The actuators are the cogs that drive the doors to open and close. So by wiring the motion sensors into an OR gate (so either motion sensor can trigger both doors simultaneously), then wiring the OR gate into the actuators, you have a basic “Motion Activated Sliding Door” circuit.

As you can see, it has actuators that mechanically manipulate objects. Whether you could add one to, say, a steering wheel, or if you would even want to, has yet to be seen. I imagine you could probably create a small remote controlled toy car that carries a bomb with the stuff they already have in-game.

Also, after re-reading that particular blog entry, the drag and drop scripting may not be entirely necessary. The pins and wires system has it pretty well covered. Who knows, it may be useful though.

[Aleph Two]

Hello, first post here, but a very long-time Introversion supporter.
Game idea:
A strategy game of some sorts. Sandbox with goal-orientated elements, however with one twist! The players avatar's become aware that they are not in reality.
You start off by directly controlling (fps-like) an avatar through a game universe, but as the initial systems progress, the character comes to realise that they are in a simulation.
This leads them to start questioning your control, and as a consequence, you start to lose control over them (the characters personalities could be developed by completion of early actions of the controlling gamer - passive/agressive, intelligence, charisma, etc). However, both you (and them) start gaining control over the physical environment and can control (via live code updating) various aspects of the universe.

Lots of standard modification scripts become available throughout the perceived progress of the game, with the script language being available for customisation & modification.
I'd provide both a script preparation environment (F-keys to launch certain generic scripts) plus a live game-debugging environment to play with (think in-game console). This would also allow them to adjust parameters of generic scripts as they were run.
As your control over your increasingly-aware avatar is diminished, you gain greater influence the world around them and also to suggest courses of action, leaving the actual mechanics to the avatar (your earlier actions in-game should be enough to provide a decent framework to hang an AI off?)

Note: What I'm trying to suggest is a method of actually live-scripting the sandbox. Allowing actual modifications to the running code! Giving the avatar a decent AI, and allowing it to also learn & modify the game scripting could be entertaining.

Whaddya think? Possible?

[Clive At Five]

^ Sounds like a very ambitious game that I would like to someday play, but it doesn't sound like Subversion, which I would like to play even more, and soon at that.

-Clive

[ScifiSpirit]

That is very cool idea in my opinion. Perhaps too much (actual) programming for Subversion. I expect there to be close to none in actual game. Though I hope there is substantial amount of logic tampering/altering, manually on the fly, not with predesigned devices only, both electrical and software, tying to gameplay. And some optional programming portions wouldn't hurt the game IMO.

But I like the avatar idea.
At this point, Introversion has already (more or less) set in stone the core theme and gameplay of Subversion, and your idea feels like it conflicts with that. At least in large scale. Modding will likely grant the greatest chance of seeing your idea in the game. I'd still like to see the avatar idea in smaller scale.

[phANT1m]

Just a idea, they should maybe just consult with pen testers (penetration testers). That is if they are not doing anything yet, but pen testers usually know these things and can give really awesome ideas to use in a game like this.

[lehua011]

I like some of your ideas, but I'd like to comment on the fifth one. The current plan is to allow the player to use lua scripts to run devices. It's based on C++, but it's more user friendly- the user is given pre-defined functions that have pre-defined inputs and effects, and the user has no access to the coding that makes up the functions. From those functions, more complex scripts can be made, and when combined with the wire system already in place, you could make some pretty elaborate devices. The 17th subversion blog post has a good description of how it would be done. Well, I think it's the 17th one. They're all worth reading, regardless.


_________________________

[SparroHawc]

In regards to programming with Lua - if it is possible, it would be limited almost exclusively to preparing tools in-between missions. And it certainly shouldn't be a requirement to get through things, as not everyone who is a gamer is capable of programming. Even hacking into a device that uses LUA, figuring out what it does, and then modifying the script takes a prohibitively long time in a scenario such as Subversion is portraying. And it breaks the flow of the game.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the capability of using LUA in-game - but that gives a distinct advantage to those who know the language. It doesn't make sense to include that capability outside of modding.

Now, I -would- love to see the possibility of jury-rigging devices using the wire-and-pin system. I could see it falling by the wayside in favor of Uplink-style tool usage, as shown in the video, and that would certainly work - but I like to tinker with things.

[Lucky13]

I found this in part 17 of the subversion blogs that is relevant to your second idea. In this quote, he explains the simple circuit diagram for a sliding door mechanism.

The way it works is quite simple. The two motion sensors have a Circuit Pin, which carries a value. A value of 1 means “yes”, and a value of 0 means “no”. When the motion sensors detect movement in their zone, they set their pin to 1, and when there is no movement they set their pins to 0. Similarly, the Actuators are controlled by a Circuit Pin – set it to 1 to make the actuators open, and set it to 0 to make them close. The actuators are the cogs that drive the doors to open and close. So by wiring the motion sensors into an OR gate (so either motion sensor can trigger both doors simultaneously), then wiring the OR gate into the actuators, you have a basic “Motion Activated Sliding Door” circuit.

As you can see, it has actuators that mechanically manipulate objects. Whether you could add one to, say, a steering wheel, or if you would even want to, has yet to be seen. I imagine you could probably create a small remote controlled toy car that carries a bomb with the stuff they already have in-game.

Also, after re-reading that particular blog entry, the drag and drop scripting may not be entirely necessary. The pins and wires system has it pretty well covered. Who knows, it may be useful though.

I for one would LOVE to see this integrated into the game somehow.. so many possibilities. perhaps even create your own system, in game.. and the graphics dont have to be complicated. more like connect the dots. mouse symbol turn into wire cutters. this game has a generated city with generated buildings... or will i hope.. darn im excited,,, cant wait...

[xander]

Just, you know, for your information: it is generally considered bad form to "bump" old topics (i.e. topics that have been idle for a while). It is doubly bad form to bump several old topics in an orgy of posting. We know that you are excited about Subversion. We are, too. That doesn't mean that you need to bump every topic around in order to express how excited you are. Before you post, take a second to ask yourself "Does anyone else in the world care about what I am about to post?"

xander

[Lucky13]

the answer to which is most likely an enfatic, no, to probably anything i post anywhere.

but if something is posted on last month is it still considered a dead post? wasnt really down the list... also im new and hadnt had the chance to post anything on the topic previously...

but i apologize for my excitement, it wont happen again............
i know thats not really what you ment but that kinda really took the wind out of my sails...

[xander]

Honestly, it is less the fact that you bumped this topic, and more the fact that you bumped several topics. This was just the last in the list of things that I read. I understand and appreciate your enthusiasm. That is great. My suggestion is that you just take a deep breath, and slow down a little. Post in only one or two topics at a time. Wait a few hours for some reaction from the rest of the community (or note the complete lack thereof). Learn the informal rules of the forums, and try to abide by them. It will make you happier, and will make many other people in the community happier (or, perhaps, it will just make me happier, but I doubt that I am the only one).

xander