Prison Architect is now in Alpha

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Postby ynbniar » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:25 pm

jelco wrote:..."we don't value you if you don't pay money"...

Jelco


A number of us, not least yourself, have invested time and feel a strong connection towards Introversion. I noticed today in wikipedia...

"Introversion has a relatively minute, but dedicated, following."

I like this and it's true we are not legion, we are minute and here's the crunch, we don't and will never pay the bills...Introversion can't pander to the minute quantity of hardcore followers. I'm sure they value us but I suspect they also wish there were more of us.
Last edited by ynbniar on Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Xocrates » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:49 pm

jelco wrote:However, I don't agree with the direction this seems to be going in (especially not the metaphorical middle finger towards dedicated community members that says "we don't value you if you don't pay money"). I'm explained this point of view plenty over here, and still stand by it.

And I stand by what I said in that thread. I like the idea of what IV is doing, but I dislike the way they're doing it.

To me it appears that either they're reaching too far with the price of the game or they're trying to do the old way except it's pay to enter instead of semi-random selection.

ynbniar wrote:Introversion can't pander to the minute quantity of hardcore followers.

This is not the problem, it has never been the problem, the problem is that I doubt the current system functions anywhere near as well as they might think (but I sure hope I'm wrong). It feels like they're culling out the "poor uneducated masses" on the assumption that those that are willing to pay 30$ for an early alpha will be valuable testers (doubtful) and those who don't will complain about a buggy game.

If they want a smaller pool of testers, I don't find paying premium is the way to go. I fine with pre-ordering a game and helping to test, I'm fine with testing for free in my free time, I'm not fine with paying for the "privilege" of testing.

And that's what annoys me so much, I feel like they're excluding folk for ill-defined reasons. It's not a matter of not pandering to us, I get that they're a business and we're not as many or as reliable as they would want us to.

But right now, all they're going to get, are the "rich" fanboys, which, and I say this from experience, are not the greatest at giving useful feedback.
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Postby Feud » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:55 pm

The more I thought about it as I ran some errands, the more the $30 price point seemed odd to me.

I rarely pay that much for finished games anymore. For an Alpha? I might do it, since I like the company. Maybe. But that seems rather high to get into an alpha test without any other incentive, especially given how appalling IV's track record on patches and updates is.
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Postby Jordy... » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:02 pm

Thinking back on Multiwinia... they do have a bad track record in my mind of supporting there games.. but hey, they seem to have got big plans with this game and I'm more then happy to pay my share to make it happen.

But overall I felt it was all a bit too much business minded, and I'd have to say it didn't feel "honest". I get the feeling Mark has thought up some business strategies and thought it wise to appeal to there strong suite which is there independence and that they need money to stay afloat calling on our sympathy to help them.
Cuz fuck logic
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Postby foxxtrot » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:14 pm

jelco wrote:That's some selective reading you're doing.


Not that selective. Wasteland 2 did a $1000 donation just to add an NPC, Named Weapon, or Location. Project Eternity, from Obsidian, has a $5000 price point to be able to add things to the world, and while Project Eternity throws in an extra 10 downloads of the game to make up for the difference between that and the $3000 price point, they're doing that knowing full well that most people who would donate the $5k, won't use the extra 10 copies anyway.
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Postby ynbniar » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:03 am

Xocrates wrote:This is not the problem, it has never been the problem, the problem is that I doubt the current system functions anywhere near as well as they might think (but I sure hope I'm wrong). It feels like they're culling out the "poor uneducated masses" on the assumption that those that are willing to pay 30$ for an early alpha will be valuable testers (doubtful) and those who don't will complain about a buggy game.

If they want a smaller pool of testers, I don't find paying premium is the way to go. I fine with pre-ordering a game and helping to test, I'm fine with testing for free in my free time, I'm not fine with paying for the "privilege" of testing.

And that's what annoys me so much, I feel like they're excluding folk for ill-defined reasons. It's not a matter of not pandering to us, I get that they're a business and we're not as many or as reliable as they would want us to.

But right now, all they're going to get, are the "rich" fanboys, which, and I say this from experience, are not the greatest at giving useful feedback.


I think your view of where the money is going is a bit narrow - you are not paying for the privilege of testing...you're paying for an unfinished video game, the finished game whenever that might become available, and some of your payment will help keep Introversion going. There is no obligation to test anything.

Also I disagree with your "rich" premise - since when was buying a game for $30 a "rich" man's pursuit :?:

I should add I consider $30 to be expensive for an indie game, alpha or not, but at the same time it's still inexpensive compared to studio games. I just recently bought FTL at a much lower price point and it is a terrific game, however just an hour or so with PA and I reckon it is "worth" more than FTL, or it should be once it is finished :)
Last edited by ynbniar on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby jelco » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:11 am

foxxtrot wrote:Not that selective.

Ok, seriously? I meant selective reading of my post. Once again you're going on about one point but ignoring all the other stuff I said in my post.

Jelco
"The ships hung in the sky much the same way that bricks don't."
- Douglas Adams
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Postby Xocrates » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:27 am

ynbniar wrote:I think your view of where the money is going is a bit narrow - you are not paying for the privilege of testing...you're paying for an unfinished video game, the finished game whenever that might become available, and some of your payment will help keep Introversion going. There is no obligation to test anything.

Also I disagree with your "rich" premise - since when was buying a game for $30 a "rich" man's pursuit :?:

My point was that either a) the game is too expensive - it's certainly more expensive than any previous IV game, and you could buy ALL the games that inspired it by less of the cost of it - or b) (and this is scarily likely) the price will actually go down between alpha and release, which is where the "privilege" part comes from, in this case you're actually paying premium for the ability to, for all effects, even if not actively, test the game.

IV has done and shown nothing to justify 30$ for the game. And their actual comments was because they wanted to keep the amount of players low, which seems counter-intuitive.

And for fuck's sake never ever EVER argue that "x amount of money isn't that much". That's one of the most condescending and privileged remarks that one can make.

And for that matter, my argument isn't that I can't afford it, it's that I don't have a reason to. IV is no longer the "last of the bedroom programmers", they have some serious competition now, and that competition is already putting out more games at more affordable prices at a rate larger than I can keep up.

It annoys me greatly that my wish to support IV, help testing and be a part of that community is irrelevant, because I cannot justify the entrance fee at this point.
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Postby zach » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:12 am

Hmm...

I used to test Multiwinia, and I took it quite seriously (that reminds me, where is my Beta Winner badge?). Would play for hours and meticulously report bugs. I know others here did as well - it felt right, justified to spend some serious time for the privilege of being in the Multiwinia Beta.

Now, I will no doubt pay for one of the kickstarteresque accesses, but the incentive, the will to spend hours testing and carefully reporting might not be there anymore. The privilege now lies in just "having enough money" rather than being one of the (quite flatteringly) specially selected testers.

Also, it might be worth noting that people of the community that can afford to help Introversion out monetarily probably already do; I've lost count of how many times I've bought IV's games.

$30 is a bit steep for me, doubtlessly even more so for others. Maybe at the beginning of next month.

This is a bit silly ... but I'll still support IV to the best of my abilities.

What a bunch of incoherent blabber. Well, it's 7 AM and I need some breakfast *yawn*.
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Postby ynbniar » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:21 am

Xocrates wrote:My point was that either a) the game is too expensive - it's certainly more expensive than any previous IV game, and you could buy ALL the games that inspired it by less of the cost of it - or b) (and this is scarily likely) the price will actually go down between alpha and release, which is where the "privilege" part comes from, in this case you're actually paying premium for the ability to, for all effects, even if not actively, test the game.


As I've said nobody is under any obligation to test the game. It's up to you if you want to interpret it that way...another way is to consider it a premium for early access...another way is to consider it support for IV...there are many ways to interpret the high price.

Xocrates wrote:And for fuck's sake never ever EVER argue that "x amount of money isn't that much". That's one of the most condescending and privileged remarks that one can make.


Pardon? That's utter rubbish I never said $30 isn't that much...you said,

Xocrates wrote:But right now, all they're going to get, are the "rich" fanboys


I simply disagreed with your assertion that paying $30 for a video game makes anyone "rich". Disagreeing with your mild insult aimed at early adopters of PA isn't condescending.
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Postby Xocrates » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:22 am

ynbniar wrote:
Xocrates wrote:And for fuck's sake never ever EVER argue that "x amount of money isn't that much". That's one of the most condescending and privileged remarks that one can make.


Pardon? That's utter rubbish I never said $30 isn't that much...you said,

Xocrates wrote:But right now, all they're going to get, are the "rich" fanboys


I simply disagreed with your assertion that paying $30 for a video game makes anyone "rich".

I used quotes around rich for a reason. In particular I was contextualizing it as having the disposable income to justify premium for the beta.

By calling out my use of it you were, if indirectly, saying that 30$ isn't that much money.
No, paying 30$ for a game doesn't make you rich, but it makes you "rich" in this context.

ynbniar wrote:Disagreeing with your mild insult aimed at early adopters of PA isn't condescending.

What insult? "Rich"? Fanboys? I would use those terms to define myself most of the time, heck I'm a "rich" fanboy right now despite not owning the alpha.

Don't get me wrong, I have no quarrel with the folk in the alpha, my issue is with the way IV is handling things. In particular, by intentionally and explicitly trying to narrow the alpha testers to a specific group (the "rich" fanboys) I feel they're missing the point of these kind of alphas to begin with.

I was glad when they announced this approach to the alpha because it would fix what I perceived to be a major problem in the previous betas: fanboy bias.
Yes, we did a lot of good work on the previous games, but there were a lot of design issues that we either glossed over or outright defended in the past (I'm as guilty of this as much as any other), and that's what I hoped IV was trying to change, but by setting the entrance fee so high they're assuring the people they're getting are the fanboys anyway.
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Postby ynbniar » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:19 pm

Xocrates wrote:What insult? "Rich"? Fanboys? I would use those terms to define myself most of the time, heck I'm a "rich" fanboy right now despite not owning the alpha


Fair enough...I've always considered the term "fanboy" to be derogatory :?: ...that's always the context I've seen it used anyway.
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Postby Xocrates » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:33 pm

It usually is, but it works much in the same way that "nerd" and "geek" does. I.e. it has implications that many people aren't comfortable with but are not necessarily bad.

And let's face it, we're all IV fanboys here, it would be hypocritical of me to use the term derogatorily.
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Congrats, and consider Linux alpha

Postby beefsack » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:49 am

Congrats on the alpha release! I've now preordered, but stupidly didn't notice Linux wasn't included in the alpha, so I'll have to wait a little longer to give the game a spin.

Please consider a Linux alpha when you get around to focusing on the Linux build :)
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Congrats

Postby MarquisDeMizzle » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:56 pm

Congrats, indeed, on a big milestone! Glad to kick in what I could.

When Introversion has needed testers they've had betas. When they need funds it appears they will have fundraisers. Let us not forget that these guys are having a go at making a living as an independent dev house. They have to pay their bills with this. They have to feed their families with this. There are a myriad of ways to help these guys, but they won't all apply at the same time and the same place.

If $30 is more than you can or will afford, start sticking money in the (interest bearing) piggy bank. Follow the process, watch the alpha develop, and in the end determine what the years of effort and talent that have gone into PA are worth to you. If it's at least as much as a tank of petrol then I'll see you in the prison yard. :wink:

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