Prison Architect at Rezzed

[xander]

I'd pay good money for the defcon source code, but I wouldn't play PA if they gave it out for free and paid me to play it. Maybe PA has 'gameplay' but its not my type of game to begin with.

This is a complete non sequitor. My statement was in opposition to several people making the claim that Subversion is/could be a great game. I stated that the designer of the game probably knows more about whether or not it is a good game than a bunch of people who have never played it. This was still in reference to Subversion. You respond by stating that you would pay for the Defcon source code, and that Prison Architect looks like a crap game. This is utterly irrelevant to whether or not Subversion is a good game.

xander

Actually, from that presentation I got that Mark knew earlier then Chris that Subversion was not a good game. And he was relieved when Chris finally came around and thought the same way about it. Also, I've showed my concerns before they canceled it without ever playing it or seeing it real-life and I turned out to be right on my opinion.
At first instance there is logic in your reasoning, but if you think about it, sometimes you are too close to something that you can't see the greater picture, this might be the case here, and then someone from outside can see things more clearly.

You have said nothing that I disagree with, but I still fail to see how the quality of Defcon or PA is relevant to a discussion of Subversion.

xander

[Jordy...]

Good point, remembers me of the film "thank you for smoking", the trick is to say nothing that your opponent can disagree with, but which is in itself besides the point, and so you win the discussion . Except if someone calls you out on it.. that's not really nice of you.

But yea, my opinion of PA has shifted from.. "probably nothing more to it then a better then usual theme-game" to "This might actually be pretty good". Though I still feel to see how you can keep things entertaining without multiplayer.. even though the AI is supposedly pretty smart, you will figure it out eventually and then what is there to do?
Though saying they want players to create all these really complex interactions like in DF makes me hope for a lot .

[xander]

Though I still feel to see how you can keep things entertaining without multiplayer..

Honestly, I would prefer it if indie studios would stick to single player games. Multiplayer games require a large number of people to stay interesting---one needs to be able to find people to play with easily, otherwise you end up with either empty servers (Multiwinia) or playing the same people over and over again (Defcon). For my money, Uplink and Darwinia have been far more valuable to me than Defcon or Multiwinia. Of course, I don't really like multiplayer games to begin with---I don't like playing against anonymous people on the interwebs (I do, however, love multiplayer console games, where you can sit in the same room with the people you are playing).

What does interest me, as far as multiplayer is concerned, is something along the lines of the model that Spore sought to create. Each user plays in their own sandbox, but ideas that they come up with can be shared easily.

xander

[UsF]

I wanted to write something on the statement that "a single bullet could ruin all that nicely made AI code".
Isn't that the same problem in Hitman? You can go in all rambo or you can actually try to be sneaky.
In that game, there are encouragements to act hidden, undetected, so that you aren't spotted on your next assignment.
A similar approach could be done in Subversion.

Besides that, I think players should be able to set up maps and missions, that can then be played by other players, sort of like a security sandbox mapmaking game.

[Jordy...]

Though I still feel to see how you can keep things entertaining without multiplayer..

Honestly, I would prefer it if indie studios would stick to single player games. Multiplayer games require a large number of people to stay interesting---one needs to be able to find people to play with easily, otherwise you end up with either empty servers (Multiwinia) or playing the same people over and over again (Defcon). For my money, Uplink and Darwinia have been far more valuable to me than Defcon or Multiwinia. Of course, I don't really like multiplayer games to begin with---I don't like playing against anonymous people on the interwebs (I do, however, love multiplayer console games, where you can sit in the same room with the people you are playing).

What does interest me, as far as multiplayer is concerned, is something along the lines of the model that Spore sought to create. Each user plays in their own sandbox, but ideas that they come up with can be shared easily.

xander

I like the idea of users sharing content, might keep things fresh after you completed the campaign and are just messing around.

[FISKER_Q]

Great to finally see some news from you

Did watch the presentation, can't say that i agree though, well the UI does suck but i think it's a bit unfair saying you can simply bypass all the cool stuff by shooting someone in the head, that's what you there for, to prevent that from happening, I think that IOI's Hitman: Absolution walkthrough kinda tried to illustrate that point, sure you can shoot someone in the head, but it may eventually cascade into a mission failure due to the unwanted attention you have gathered.

To me it didn't seem impossible to achieve, it's a matter of balancing, don't let the player get away that easily with shooting an AI then, you could easily say that the AI reports an area clear, and a missing report = something is wrong = shooting guy in the head won't work for long. I do hope you find a use for it though, infact if the game had some graphics as well it might even pass as a sandbox-type of game, kinda like Minecraft with custom-made objective maps.

Anyway looking forward to shove my money in your face, I hope we can buy the alpha/beta soon.

[Arowx]

Just watched you Rezzed presentation online really enjoyed it, nice insight on how to take a tech project without gameplay and make a fun and interesting game.

But if you we're to put gunshot microphones, and heart rate monitors into your security system and you would make the players work for their rewards. Also add sleeping gas/cs gas dispensers, metal detectors and your getting their.

The game then is not so much getting into the vault as obtaining the blueprints/security specs.

I think that much of the point of the talk was that Chris had spent a great deal of time building really complicated systems that could be easily defeated by a shortcut (i.e. shooting a guard in the head, cutting the power, &c.). Adding additional systems exacerbates the situation.

xander

I'm simply providing measures that would prevent a simple shoot guard scenario:

Microphones, detects gunshots triggers alarm: Workaround silencers on guns.
Heart rate monitors on guards, detects severe trauma, tranquillization raises alarm: Can't think of a workaround for this apart from stealth or subterfuge and bypassing security.

I think the tech they have made is very in depth and they probably should release it as a sandbox game where a community of players can build better security systems and try and circumvent security systems. But as people have mentioned if they get time away from it they will be able to see the wood for the trees.

But Prison Architect looks cool and totally 'Indie' (original).

[xander]

I'm simply providing measures that would prevent a simple shoot guard scenario:

You are missing the forest for the tree. Shooting a guard in the head is one of many possible shortcuts that a player could take. Chris also noted that, rather than trying to defeat the laser system using complicated mirrors, a player could simply cut off the power, or that instead of defeating a locked door by getting a key from a guard (either through social engineering, theft, or shooting him in the head) the player can simply drill out the lock. The problem is not that one system can be quickly defeated, but that players will probably find a shortcut for defeating any interesting system. This is what happens when you give a player a set of tools, rather than keys that fit only a single lock (where "lock" in this case can mean anything from security guards to laser systems).

Microphones, detects gunshots triggers alarm: Workaround silencers on guns.

Or I can just cut the power. That was how Chris demonstrated the quick defeat of the laser system and the security cameras in the Rezzed presentation. "Fine," you say, "include an anti-cutting-the-power-system." But that is anther system that can be potentially beaten somehow, so now you need an anti-anti-anti-cutting-the-power-system, which can also be defeated. It's turtles all the way down. However clever you think you are, players are always going to find a way to take the tools you give them and jump over your ingenious traps. If you don't believe me, try GMing a pen-and-pencil RPG. You have to stay on your toes to keep the players from (a) defeating your traps to easily and (b) getting bored or dieing off (unless you are playing Paranoia, in which case, death is a part of life). As a human, you have the advantage of being able to very quickly adjust on the fly, whereas a computer is not nearly as good at that.

Not to mention the fact that another of the problems that Chris cited is that each new system could take hours or days to code up, but the reward for the player is minimal---days of coding are defeated in seconds by the player, and the added complexity has not improved the gameplay experience a bit.

Heart rate monitors on guards, detects severe trauma, tranquillization raises alarm: Can't think of a workaround for this apart from stealth or subterfuge and bypassing security.

That you cannot think of a work around does not mean that some other clever player cannot. I recently proved result for my thesis which rested on an hidden and unproven lemma. It was the kind of thing that seemed self-evidently true. My advisor asked if it was really true, and I glibbly replied, "Of course it's true! What else could it be?" My advisor got very stern, and said, "That you don't have the creativity to imagine an alternative does not exclude the possibility." Needless to say, I spent the next week confirming the result. It is much more difficult to imagine all of the possible scenarios that a player could try, nor which crazy combinations of tools might prove useful. Consider naval bombing in Defcon, which didn't appear until the game had been out for almost a year, yet which utterly altered the landscape of play.

I think the tech they have made is very in depth and they probably should release it as a sandbox game where a community of players can build better security systems and try and circumvent security systems.

The tools are neat. I love the tools. I just don't see where the game is. That said, I love LEGO, and while I have no interest in Minecraft, others clearly do. Subversion, as is, might be an interesting toy to play with, in the same way that LEGO and Minecraft are interesting toys. I still don't see the game.

But as people have mentioned if they get time away from it they will be able to see the wood for the trees.

We can hope. The Subversion engine seems to contain some really cool stuff, and it would be wonderful to see that made into a game. I just don't think that any potential Subversion game will be anything like the gaming paradigm that Chris has set aside. Alternatively, all of the lovely tech that has been developed will be cannibalized into other games (e.g. the systems-level approach and building editor have been incorporated into Prison Architect).

But Prison Architect looks cool and totally 'Indie' (original).

On this, I think we can all agree (except BGP---he seems to have already decided that PA will be terrible).

xander

[Arowx]

@xander I think we may be missing the valley, anything that raises an alarm completely changes the game from a stealth subversion style game to a hostage situation.

I think the games most obvious flaw is it's transparency, you already have the blueprint for the vault and security systems.

What if there was a meta game to obtain accurate blueprints and information on the buildings security systems?

Or to take the guards family hostage so you can waltz in without a shot fired?

I think this meta game/big picture within a living breathing city would be the ideal version of Subversion, in my opinion.

[xander]

@xander I think we may be missing the valley, anything that raises an alarm completely changes the game from a stealth subversion style game to a hostage situation.

I think that, perhaps, you are missing the larger paradigm of the game. What has always been the most interesting feature of Subversion is the ground-up, systems-level design of the game. To illustrate why this is cool, consider the Metal Gear Solid games. Superficially, they are similar to the idea of Subversion that has been shown thus far. That is, it is a stealth/infiltration game. In these games, you can alert guards to your presence by, for instance, firing a gun without a suppressor. If a guard hears the gunshot, he will call for reinforcements. If you first shoot his radio, he can't call reinforcements, and so the alarm is not raised. The game notes the gunshot, checks if you have shot the radios of any nearby guards, and either raises the alarm or not. This is entirely scripted.

On the other hand, the design philosophy of Subversion is that the gun, the radio, &c. are all systems that work through some realistic mechanism. You fire a gunshot, and a nearby guard hears it. He has a radio, which he uses to call for backup. That radio signal is actually modeled (in some fashion), and is actually received by another system in the game, perhaps a security call center on the other side of city---a call center that is also modeled as a system. When some NPC in the call center gets the alarm, he calls the cops. The police are yet another system that are actually modeled. It may or may not take them time to get to you. You could shoot out the radio, or find the radio operator at the other end of the signal and take him out, or cut power to the call center (which, by the way, probably services several other buildings in addition to the one you are trying to rob, or you could slash the police vehicles' tires, or, or... Because it is a system that is actually modeled in its entirety, there are lots of ways that it could be attacked. Unfortunately, the whole system can probably be defeated by a pair of wire cutters, or some other combination of tools that the designers didn't foresee (again, naval nuking, anyone?).

So, honestly, I don't see how you can be sure that an alarm will be raised. You can create all of the sound-detectors and heart-rate-monitors you like, but all of these pieces of kit are wired into some system, and the quickest way to finish the mission is to find the highest level system and defeat it. That might mean shooting a guard in the head, turning off the power, or blowing up a building. That is the problem with attempting to model every system. It is a cool idea, but it makes it very difficult to build a game.

And, again, to reiterate a very important point, every potential fix that you propose involves the construction of more systems that have to interact with other systems in the game. This requires coding and testing, and, in the face of virtual certainty that players will find a work around, how do you make a good game without losing the charm of the systems-level approach?

I think the games most obvious flaw is it's transparency, you already have the blueprint for the vault and security systems.

What if there was a meta game to obtain accurate blueprints and information on the buildings security systems?

I seem to recall that earlier demonstrations have shown that you don't automatically have such a transparent view. I remember a bank vault mission in which some time was spent scouting the building, getting blueprints, &c. Guards are not necessarily visible if you haven't hacked the right system or are standing right in front of them. Given these previous demonstrations, I think that your point is one that IV have already considered. Upon such consideration, IV still decided that there was no game.

Or to take the guards family hostage so you can waltz in without a shot fired?

Chris has previously mentioned that social engineering is a part of the game. I don't know if the scenario you suggest is one that he considered, but other similar kinds of approaches have definitely been discussed.

I think this meta game/big picture within a living breathing city would be the ideal version of Subversion, in my opinion.

I think that a simulation of a living, breathing city is a really cool idea. I think that systems-level design is nifty. I think that Mission Impossible was a great show, and that a game that captured the feel of that show would be awesome. I think that Subversion has the potential to combine all of these ideas, but I think that a couple of very smart, very motivated people have been working on it for a decade, and still haven't figured out how to make it work. Without seeing the behind-the-scenes discussions of Subversion, I don't know what avenues Chris went down, but I am inclined to believe him when he says that the game sucks, and I am also inclined to believe that there is basically nothing that we can suggest that he hasn't already tried.

xander

[OpenFlow]

We did the Rezzed Game Show recently in Brighton, and it was awesome. We had four computers running Prison Architect (the first two story chapters were playable, as well as the sandbox mode), and they were permanently busy for both days. We chatted to a lot of players and took a lot of feedback and ideas from it. Some people sat down and just played for hours, which was really encouraging to see. Apart from Bit Of Alright, this was the first show where the general public have been able to play, and I'm really happy with how it went down.

We also gave a talk to a packed conference room about the gestation of Prison Architect - how we started out with Subversion, the things that went wrong on that project, and how a holiday to California resulted in a massive shift of projects. Eurogamer has published the video of this talk and you can see it here:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012- ... itect-wont

This is what the audience looked like from the stage

The Rezzed show generated quite a lot of articles on various websites. Here's a rundown of the coverage if you missed it:

How Alcatraz and a chatty taxi driver led to Subversion's death and Prison Architect's birth (Eurogamer)

The thorny issues of sexual assault and race in Prison Architect (Eurogamer)

The Eurogamer podcast on Rezzed (We are discussed around 18m)

I Am Indie: Chris Delay From Introversion Software (The Game Jar) (filmed on the show floor)

Prison Architect Preview from the Rezzed show floor (The Game Jar)


All of these article links went up on our Twitter feed first. We are basically using Twitter as our News feed now - more people follow us on Twitter than read the news blog these days. So if you haven't signed up yet, do so now so you get the latest.

@IVSoftware

Big thanks to everyone that came to see us at Rezzed, and big thanks to Eurogamer and RPS for organising such a great show.

Hi Chris,


Compared to DEFCON, Prison Architect is going to be largely a single-player game, correct? If so, how are you going to tackle the problem of piracy and cheating? Traditionally, DEFCON has at least some level of deterrence against both because of the very heavy multiplayer nature of the game. Prison Architect as a standalone game would likely to be easily cracked unless you are going to use some sort of more persistent online activation /authentication key check system (which would go against Introversion's long stated policy of a minimum DRM system; checking for duplicate keys and requiring internet connection for multiplayer games is one thing, doing that for single player is a completely different story ). How are you going to deter piracy on the PC platform? As you know, even steam games can be cracked. Will Prison Architect simply be competitively priced? But in order for that to be feasible, the game must sell in volumes.... so what kind of market analysis have you done? Do you think a prison type of game really has that sort of mass appeal to the general gaming audience or in the indie space outside of the fans and followers of IV?

On the element of game cheating.... the whole structural tension of something like Prison Architect (a sim's like game) is an economic one, how to optimize in the face of limited resources and opportunity costs. How are you going to deter against cheats, trainers, memhacks (such as CheatEngine use, etc)? Will you code some sort of in-game cheat detection mechanism that makes this harder to do? Or will you require internet connectivity in all games and have an anti-cheating server examining all actions against expect monetary values so as to prevent cheating on client side? Or will you even bother with the problem of cheat deterrence at all? The issue with cheating in a single player game such as Prison Architect is that if it is readily feasible, it will really decrease the longevity (and thus the mind-share) of the game.

I see IV is going the paid alpha, release early, rapid iteration style with Prison Architect. Since IV has announced digital distribution will be the only way going forward, how soon can we expect such a paid alpha and how many platforms will you port this game? Xbox360? PS3? Windows 8 Metro? iOS? Android? All the above? What kind of pricing scheme will you use? If I buy Prison Architect on the PC, for example, do I automagically get it for the ipad as well or will I have to pay again for the convenience of being able to play on each of the fragmented device form factors?

How do you think Prison Architect will do in terms of sales? What efforts have you done in terms of awareness and promotion? Obviously you can't go around posting google ad banners on prison forums and such (that would be insensitive and possibly run you into legal issues) and as money strapped as IV is ... I don't see some sort of magical or massive ad campaign coming to your rescue. So lacking that, you basically rely on word of mouth and the inherent merit of the game itself.

Chris, if Prison Architect doesn't sell the kind of numbers you would like to see.... have you thought about canning Mark so you become a leaner (is that even possible? lol) meaner machine and run IV all by yourself? You are already basically a one man show anyway. You do all the coding and Mark is a formality and a public front to IV.... which sooner or later you will realize you can neither afford nor do you truly need. You have hired and contracted out artwork, contrary to your "we will procedure this" fantasy of not hiring artists... yeah we all know how THAT turned out dodn't we? Its time you put on more meat, afford to get some food and hit the gym, or get your metabolism checked out or something cause you way too skinny man. And Mark on the other hand, no offense, but he can cut some fat, so to speak. Or maybe he is the fat and you can cut him? What is a managing director that neither manages nor directs? I'm pretty sure you can replace him with Excel.

I hope to hear back from you and let me know your thoughts! Oh and I'd love to sign up asap to be a paid alpha test as soon as possible.

[Xocrates]

^^ Good lord.

Compared to DEFCON, Prison Architect is going to be largely a single-player game, correct? If so, how are you going to tackle the problem of piracy and cheating?

Assuming it's single player game, why should they tackle it? There's no reason to prevent cheating on a single player game, and piracy is best fought by making a product people want to buy. Heck, last I checked Darwinia had no DRM.

Chris, if Prison Architect doesn't sell the kind of numbers you would like to see.... have you thought about canning Mark

Mark takes care of the business side of things while Chris does the games. Getting rid of Mark wouldn't make IV a leaner meaner machine, probably even the opposite since Chris would have to focus on things other than games.

[OpenFlow]

^^ Good lord.

Compared to DEFCON, Prison Architect is going to be largely a single-player game, correct? If so, how are you going to tackle the problem of piracy and cheating?

Assuming it's single player game, why should they tackle it? There's no reason to prevent cheating on a single player game, and piracy is best fought by making a product people want to buy. Heck, last I checked Darwinia had no DRM.

Chris, if Prison Architect doesn't sell the kind of numbers you would like to see.... have you thought about canning Mark

Mark takes care of the business side of things while Chris does the games. Getting rid of Mark wouldn't make IV a leaner meaner machine, probably even the opposite since Chris would have to focus on things other than games.

Chris has a wife you know? Women are pretty good with keeping track of money. And last time I checked, IV was a two person company, and if Mark gets canned, it would be a ONE MAN SHOW. A guy and his wife can't keep track of their own finances? With all the great financial automation software out there today, I find it hard to believe (that Mark is worth his weight)...

[xander]

Compared to DEFCON, Prison Architect is going to be largely a single-player game, correct? If so, how are you going to tackle the problem of piracy and cheating?

Xocrates nailed this one: there is no reason to prevent cheating (in fact, IV have all but encouraged it in their previous single players games), and IV have always published their games without DRM---for a small studio, the potential gains from preventing piracy are swamped by the good will generated by not having DRM.

Will Prison Architect simply be competitively priced? But in order for that to be feasible, the game must sell in volumes.... so what kind of market analysis have you done? Do you think a prison type of game really has that sort of mass appeal to the general gaming audience or in the indie space outside of the fans and followers of IV?

For someone who wants to give Mark the boot, you are certainly asking a lot of questions that he can probably answer and that Chris probably cannot.

On the element of game cheating.... the whole structural tension of something like Prison Architect (a sim's like game) is an economic one, how to optimize in the face of limited resources and opportunity costs. How are you going to deter against cheats, trainers, memhacks (such as CheatEngine use, etc)? Will you code some sort of in-game cheat detection mechanism that makes this harder to do? Or will you require internet connectivity in all games and have an anti-cheating server examining all actions against expect monetary values so as to prevent cheating on client side? Or will you even bother with the problem of cheat deterrence at all? The issue with cheating in a single player game such as Prison Architect is that if it is readily feasible, it will really decrease the longevity (and thus the mind-share) of the game.

You are just wrong on so many levels. Who cares if people cheat in a single player game? If someone buys something, they should be able to do whatever they like with it, as long as they are not infringing on the experience of others. If someone wants to pay $x to buy PA, who the hell cares if they cheat? They have already purchased the game, and it is theirs to do with as they please. This is especially true, I think, in a sandbox environment like the one that PA seems to be offering. Cheating is just another way of finding out what happens when certain inputs are given to the system.

How do you think Prison Architect will do in terms of sales? What efforts have you done in terms of awareness and promotion? Obviously you can't go around posting google ad banners on prison forums and such (that would be insensitive and possibly run you into legal issues) and as money strapped as IV is ... I don't see some sort of magical or massive ad campaign coming to your rescue. So lacking that, you basically rely on word of mouth and the inherent merit of the game itself.

Again, you are asking Chris (er... the forum...) questions that Mark probably knows the answers to, yet you want to show him the door. I would also note that (1) most games companies are pretty tight lipped about what they have sold (or how they think their products will sell) and (2) you can already see much of the "awareness and promotion" that IV has generated (e.g. presentations at various events, coverage in the indie games press, this website, word of mouth, &c.). What more are you expecting?

Chris, if Prison Architect doesn't sell the kind of numbers you would like to see.... have you thought about canning Mark so you become a leaner (is that even possible? lol) meaner machine and run IV all by yourself? You are already basically a one man show anyway. You do all the coding and Mark is a formality and a public front to IV.... which sooner or later you will realize you can neither afford nor do you truly need. You have hired and contracted out artwork, contrary to your "we will procedure this" fantasy of not hiring artists... yeah we all know how THAT turned out dodn't we? Its time you put on more meat, afford to get some food and hit the gym, or get your metabolism checked out or something cause you way too skinny man. And Mark on the other hand, no offense, but he can cut some fat, so to speak. Or maybe he is the fat and you can cut him? What is a managing director that neither manages nor directs? I'm pretty sure you can replace him with Excel.

You are an insulting ass. Do you personally know anyone at IV? Have you ever met Chris or Mark? Do you have any idea what either of them actually does on a day-to-day basis? What do you know about running a business? What makes you think that you are qualified to give business advice to a group of total strangers?

Chris has a wife you know? Women are pretty good with keeping track of money. And last time I checked, IV was a two person company, and if Mark gets canned, it would be a ONE MAN SHOW. A guy and his wife can't keep track of their own finances? With all the great financial automation software out there today, I find it hard to believe (that Mark is worth his weight)...

Not only are you an insulting ass, you are a sexist prick. Go fuck yourself.

xander

[Jordy...]

Chris has a wife you know? Women are pretty good with keeping track of money. And last time I checked, IV was a two person company, and if Mark gets canned, it would be a ONE MAN SHOW. A guy and his wife can't keep track of their own finances? With all the great financial automation software out there today, I find it hard to believe (that Mark is worth his weight)...

I get were you come from, because it certainly seemed like Mark' involvement with the games is purely financial. But you should not underestimate the work that goes into say for example, getting you game on xbla, or taxes, expenses, etc.
If Chris like to make games and Mark is good with the other stuff. and they can get along, then who cares?