Coming Clean

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StooMonster
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Postby StooMonster » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:21 pm

bert_the_turtle wrote:
StooMonster wrote:Similarly, Hello Game's Joe Danger hasn't done as well on PSN as expected
Quite the contrary. It recouped development cost with the sales of the very first day.

That's what I heard, but good for them if what you say is true. :)

I'll say it again though, DEFCON on iOS would be ace!
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Kadayi
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Postby Kadayi » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:42 pm

Saved by Valve again...

I hate to break up the high five fan party but frankly if sales of D+ on XBLA didn't keep the business going I can't see why on earth there is this optimism that getting Defcon on the PSN is suddenly going to rejuvenate Introversions fortunes. Your games (charming as they are) have extremely limited appeal outside of PC savvy geek gamers (and yes I include mac users in that category). Getting Chris to divide his time between a long shot money grab (which probably won't pay out) and working on Subversion seems completely counter productive because all it does is further delay the release of a game that will sell units because there is genuine buzz for it.

Personally I wish you'd had the good grace to just wind IV up and let Chris get on with his career, rather than string him along with pipe dreams of 'rebuilding' when that elusive big pay day comes. I have no doubts that given his back catalogue he'd have absolutely no problems getting a good job with a decent development studio somewhere and probably the programming support necessary to bring Subversion to completion sooner rather than later.

Kadayi
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Postby yonoslaw » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:39 am

I think that you are doing it completely wrong! I guess that Chris is a person that wants to make games but beliefs he is the smartest programmer alive, so you waste years
on tuning his game engine and porting it to other platforms. Give it up! Switch to Unity3D and start making games!
I am a fellow developer myself and did the transition some time ago, the proportions went from 80% engine fixing, 20% games making to 99% games making...
Common guys! People like your games but you are not producing them!
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Postby ynbniar » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:43 am

I don't know Chris but I wonder if his definition of good job with a decent development studio is the same as selfish and pompous sounding cunts who seem to think they are entitled to Subversion when they want it.

I mean a couple of months ago Chris could have waved goodbye to the dreamers running IV and walked into, oh I don't know, Real Time Worlds say...keeping IV going is no more of a risk than anything else these days.

Oh and please can we have more games that look, feel and sound the same, made using generic engines like Unity...
Last edited by ynbniar on Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kadayi
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Postby Kadayi » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:28 am

ynbniar wrote:I don't know Chris but I wonder if his definition of good job with a decent development studio is the same as selfish and pompous sounding cunts who seem to think they are entitled to Subversion when they want it.


You know if you're forced to run straight to the expletives box as a counter argument you've already lost.

I mean a couple of months ago Chris could have waved goodbye to the dreamers running IV and walked into, oh I don't know, Real Time Worlds say...keeping IV going is no more of a risk than anything else these days.


I'm fairly sure a CV to Valve software would do the trick. I'm also fairly sure they aren't going into administration anytime soon either. They also have a pretty good record of making quality games and successfully selling them.
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Postby xander » Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:39 pm

Kadayi wrote:
ynbniar wrote:I don't know Chris but I wonder if his definition of good job with a decent development studio is the same as selfish and pompous sounding cunts who seem to think they are entitled to Subversion when they want it.


You know if you're forced to run straight to the expletives box as a counter argument you've already lost.

Oh, shit! A tone troll!

Hey, guess what? People curse. Cursing, in and of itself, is not a sign of a poor argument, or a lack of maturity, or a lack of creativity. It is a natural part of human languages, and often expresses emotions and ideas in the simplest way possible. It conveys a particular tone, for instance, which you seem to object to. Get over it. If the best and only rebuttal you can offer is to complain about someone's tone, or use of language, then perhaps it is you who has no real argument and "have already lost."

Would you care to respond to the point that ynbniar actually made?

Kadayi wrote:
ynbniar wrote:I mean a couple of months ago Chris could have waved goodbye to the dreamers running IV and walked into, oh I don't know, Real Time Worlds say...keeping IV going is no more of a risk than anything else these days.


I'm fairly sure a CV to Valve software would do the trick. I'm also fairly sure they aren't going into administration anytime soon either. They also have a pretty good record of making quality games and successfully selling them.

And how much creative control would Chris actually have working for a large studio such as Valve? As I read it, the whole point of this blog post is that Chris was getting fed up and burned out focusing on an old game (i.e. Darwinia) and he was not getting the time he wanted and needed to focus on the next game (i.e. Subversion). Chris does not want to be an anonymous coder, and does not want to be fixing up already written code, or adding a module to someone else's vision for a game. He wants creative control.

Again, do you really think that is something that a large studio can offer him? As I see it, the choice is between being a starving artist, or a well-paid drone. Perhaps he would prefer to be a starving artist?

xander
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Postby Kadayi » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:30 pm

Oh, shit! A tone troll!


A troll? LOL. I'm pretty sure I'm not the guy labelling people as cunts simply because they dare to voice opinions I don't like regarding this news. Clearly it seems IW are now beyond criticism on these boards I take it? Introversion über alles!!!

Would you care to respond to the point that ynbniar actually made?


What point? That opinions might differ? More at 10 here's the weather....


And how much creative control would Chris actually have working for a large studio such as Valve? As I read it, the whole point of this blog post is that Chris was getting fed up and burned out focusing on an old game (i.e. Darwinia) and he was not getting the time he wanted and needed to focus on the next game (i.e. Subversion). Chris does not want to be an anonymous coder, and does not want to be fixing up already written code, or adding a module to someone else's vision for a game. He wants creative control.


Valve? I think they've got a pretty good record at that taking on board peoples ideas and skills spinning them in interesting directions. I don't envisage that if Chris went to work for them he's be treated any differently in that respect.

Again, do you really think that is something that a large studio can offer him? As I see it, the choice is between being a starving artist, or a well-paid drone. Perhaps he would prefer to be a starving artist?


Linear choices are always so amusingly extreme and permanent. You can always leave a Job if it's not for you.

What do you care more about Xander? Introversion as a noble idea, or the career of Chris as a reality?
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Postby xander » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:59 pm

Kadayi wrote:
Oh, shit! A tone troll!

A troll? LOL. I'm pretty sure I'm not the guy labelling people as cunts simply because they dare to voice opinions I don't like regarding this news. Clearly it seems IW are now beyond criticism on these boards I take it? Introversion über alles!!!

No, you complained that someone used a naughty word. That was the sum total of your complaint. You offered no other rebuttal. You are a tone troll.

Kadayi wrote:
Would you care to respond to the point that ynbniar actually made?

What point? That opinions might differ? More at 10 here's the weather....

Oh, so there was no reason for you to reply, other than to criticize his tone? The sole purpose of your reply was to chastise him for using a word that you found offensive? Fuck you. You are a tone troll.

Kadayi wrote:
And how much creative control would Chris actually have working for a large studio such as Valve? As I read it, the whole point of this blog post is that Chris was getting fed up and burned out focusing on an old game (i.e. Darwinia) and he was not getting the time he wanted and needed to focus on the next game (i.e. Subversion). Chris does not want to be an anonymous coder, and does not want to be fixing up already written code, or adding a module to someone else's vision for a game. He wants creative control.

Valve? I think they've got a pretty good record at that taking on board peoples ideas and skills spinning them in interesting directions. I don't envisage that if Chris went to work for them he's be treated any differently in that respect.

I am willing to change my opinion, assuming you can provide evidence. Can you please cite a few examples of developers that were independent, then went to work for Valve, and were given complete creative control?

Kadayi wrote:
Again, do you really think that is something that a large studio can offer him? As I see it, the choice is between being a starving artist, or a well-paid drone. Perhaps he would prefer to be a starving artist?

Linear choices are always so amusingly extreme and permanent. You can always leave a Job if it's not for you.

I think the term you are looking for is "false dichotomy," not "linear choice." Certainly, there is a spectrum between starving artist and drone. History has shown, I think, that Chris is much happier towards the starving artist extreme of that spectrum than the drone end. Perhaps this is incorrect. Only Chris can really make that choice, and he has to make it for himself. So far, however, he seems to be sticking with the starving artist extreme. It is you that, quite stridently, declared that Chris should move on and get a real job.

Kadayi wrote:What do you care more about Xander? Introversion as a noble idea, or the career of Chris as a reality?

As far as this conversation is concerned, I want Chris to do what he wants to do. If that means that he leaves IV and goes to work for some AAA studio, good for him. All the better if it makes him happy. If it means that he continues to work at IV with his friends from college, more power to him. If it means he gets a job at McDonalds flipping burgers, great. Just so long as he is happy, and doing work that he finds fulfilling.

As to IV as an entity, I don't really care. Businesses are not people, despite the legal definition of corporate personhood. If the major players at IV are happy, I don't really care what happens to the abstract entity.

Also, a point of information---I spell my handle with a lowercase x, not a capital x. I don't really care what you do with that information, but it certainly has the potential to confirm my opinion that you are a troll.

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Postby Kadayi » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:08 pm

xander wrote:
Kadayi wrote:
Oh, shit! A tone troll!

A troll? LOL. I'm pretty sure I'm not the guy labelling people as cunts simply because they dare to voice opinions I don't like regarding this news. Clearly it seems IW are now beyond criticism on these boards I take it? Introversion über alles!!!

No, you complained that someone used a naughty word. That was the sum total of your complaint. You offered no other rebuttal. You are a tone troll.

Kadayi wrote:
Would you care to respond to the point that ynbniar actually made?

What point? That opinions might differ? More at 10 here's the weather....

Oh, so there was no reason for you to reply, other than to criticize his tone? The sole purpose of your reply was to chastise him for using a word that you found offensive? Fuck you. You are a tone troll.

Kadayi wrote:
And how much creative control would Chris actually have working for a large studio such as Valve? As I read it, the whole point of this blog post is that Chris was getting fed up and burned out focusing on an old game (i.e. Darwinia) and he was not getting the time he wanted and needed to focus on the next game (i.e. Subversion). Chris does not want to be an anonymous coder, and does not want to be fixing up already written code, or adding a module to someone else's vision for a game. He wants creative control.

Valve? I think they've got a pretty good record at that taking on board peoples ideas and skills spinning them in interesting directions. I don't envisage that if Chris went to work for them he's be treated any differently in that respect.

I am willing to change my opinion, assuming you can provide evidence. Can you please cite a few examples of developers that were independent, then went to work for Valve, and were given complete creative control?

Kadayi wrote:
Again, do you really think that is something that a large studio can offer him? As I see it, the choice is between being a starving artist, or a well-paid drone. Perhaps he would prefer to be a starving artist?

Linear choices are always so amusingly extreme and permanent. You can always leave a Job if it's not for you.

I think the term you are looking for is "false dichotomy," not "linear choice." Certainly, there is a spectrum between starving artist and drone. History has shown, I think, that Chris is much happier towards the starving artist extreme of that spectrum than the drone end. Perhaps this is incorrect. Only Chris can really make that choice, and he has to make it for himself. So far, however, he seems to be sticking with the starving artist extreme. It is you that, quite stridently, declared that Chris should move on and get a real job.

Kadayi wrote:What do you care more about Xander? Introversion as a noble idea, or the career of Chris as a reality?

As far as this conversation is concerned, I want Chris to do what he wants to do. If that means that he leaves IV and goes to work for some AAA studio, good for him. All the better if it makes him happy. If it means that he continues to work at IV with his friends from college, more power to him. If it means he gets a job at McDonalds flipping burgers, great. Just so long as he is happy, and doing work that he finds fulfilling.

As to IV as an entity, I don't really care. Businesses are not people, despite the legal definition of corporate personhood. If the major players at IV are happy, I don't really care what happens to the abstract entity.

Also, a point of information---I spell my handle with a lowercase x, not a capital x. I don't really care what you do with that information, but it certainly has the potential to confirm my opinion that you are a troll.

xander


Too funny. :roll:
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Postby xander » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:17 pm

Kadayi wrote:Too funny. :roll:

Yup. Troll.

xander
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Postby Kadayi » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:24 pm

xander wrote:Yup. Troll.

xander


I get it that with that kind of monstrous post count you're a tad sensitive when it comes to criticism of IW, and are really now beyond having an actual discussion with, given the amount of time your clearly put into these forums and IW, but I forgive you.
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Postby Treefrog » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:33 pm

Have to praise you here for coming out with such a honest account of events, up to now. No company in the world would dream of exposing them selves to their own problems, if I could I'd give you a pat on the back.

Knowing that you have problems is a concern for sure, but what can any of us mere mortals do to help. It has been a rough few years for all areas in these recessionary times.

Hopefully now though you can learn from the past mistakes, and make a much better foundation for your selves.

Oh, don't know where all those long words came from, must be in some grammatical mood. :D.
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Postby AaronLee » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:37 pm

Hate to make this the first line of my first post, but; someone needs to get this psot train back on the track. Someone needs to call tan^-1. Stop with the ad-hominem stuff. Whether or not Kadayl is a tone troll or xander some superior IV guardian (both of which I'm doubtful about -- the latter moreso than the former) we're shifting away from the subject.

As to my own feedback; it's good to hear about this stuff rather than just watch the company fold up. Hell, once I'm less broke in a day I'll likely go buy Defcon (I already have the darwinia pack, plus one bought for my friend.)

I respect introversion's portfolio and it would be a shame to see the team break up. Personally; I can't decode the situation so I'll leave it to the people on the ground as to what happens.

Personally I want to see Subversion completed -- and well. The only way I see that happening is if creative control is maintained. From my appraisal of Valve (and I have a number of their games, TOB, HL2 etc) most of their content coming directly from their development house is Source engine content. Even GMOD, and CS, which were initially outside initiatives that were legitimized, had some tie to the Source or Goldsrc engine, AFAIK.

So I see the same issue; you pilot your boat, small as it may be, you determine it's heading. Whether you're the X.O. on an aircraft carrier or a potato peeler, some non-superficial degree of control is lost.

Were any of the team just to jump over to valve, I'm not at all convinced the company would be kissing their feet and begin throwing support on their idea. This isn't ever the case with larger studios. They have their own prerogatives and finite goals, they're just looking for people who can help them reach them.
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Postby xander » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:43 pm

AaronLee wrote:So I see the same issue; you pilot your boat, small as it may be, you determine it's heading. Whether you're the X.O. on an aircraft carrier or a potato peeler, some non-superficial degree of control is lost.

This is an apt metaphor. Mind if I borrow it at some unspecified and unknown future point in time?

xander
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Postby AaronLee » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:33 am

xander wrote:
AaronLee wrote:So I see the same issue; you pilot your boat, small as it may be, you determine it's heading. Whether you're the X.O. on an aircraft carrier or a potato peeler, some non-superficial degree of control is lost.

This is an apt metaphor. Mind if I borrow it at some unspecified and unknown future point in time?

xander


Sure thing man. (The virus spreads! Muahaha! Wait, did I say that out loud?)

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