Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby Colytic » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:16 pm

Little of kudayta's moderation has been justified by the ToS. In any case what does the ToS really signify? It is some legalese put in front of you when you sign up. Almost no one has read it and I don't believe the old admins (eg Bert and NeoThermic) ever used it. As I have quoted back on the Defcon forum, NT said to Vicious back in the day:

NeoThermic wrote:IMO you failed to realise the forums are anarchy based, and topics are not locked because they are a flamefest. The only topics I've locked that were not spam were topics that needed locking due to warez or other major infraction topics...


IV has left us to our own devices. I'm not even sure when our last proper interaction with them was (I am not criticizing this, in fact I think it's right). In the old days they appointed admins from special individuals who had their trust. But the only one left from that time is Vicious.

So, as a community we are now self-governed and self-organized. Since authority no longer comes from the owners, it is left to us to choose people we trust. If the community wants to go one way, but a single mod stubbornly insists on going another, that seems paradoxical to me because the mod was only given their authority by that community. Moreover, without the members there is nothing to rule. So if they reach a clear consensus the mods should follow that (especially when it involves letting an old member back in). I don't think we voted for 'dictators for life' to rule us with an iron fist.

PS: This was Bert in 2012 when he oversaw the election of new moderators (Laika and Nukraine).
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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby (MOR) » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:00 pm

The best solution, and the solution that seems to fit the spirit of IV, would removing "Moderator Privileges" from the user kudayta and involve guidelines for a democratic process.
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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby Endless » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:37 pm

(MOR) wrote:The best solution, and the solution that seems to fit the spirit of IV, would removing "Moderator Privileges" from the user kudayta and involve guidelines for a democratic process.


No. The best solution would be to take them from all of our moderators and let an outside source dictate our forums. Someone who doesn't post on there or play the game. They just dictate. That's it.
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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby Zorotama » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:01 am

Obviously I would like a democratic comparticipation but I don't pretend to choose the administration form. The important thing, in my opinion, is the balanced aptitude...that is what kudayta lost.

The first step would be to restore baton in the forum, and then I agree to revoke kudayta because he is a damage for the comunity and for the forum itself. I don't know the reason why he become so irrational and I'm sad for that but now it's the time to solve the problem, to change the page.
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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby Forever Young » Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:50 pm

I guess the next deleted or locked thread will be " Unbanning people" viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54425
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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby Colytic » Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:42 pm

Forever Young wrote:I guess the next deleted or locked thread will be " Unbanning people" viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54425


kudayta locked the thread eleven minutes later.
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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby Forever Young » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:59 pm

Baton will not be unbanned. No one has provided me with any reasons to unban Baton, despite asking several times.

Since this is just a continuation of the previous locked thread, I'll be locking this one as well. If anyone comes up with any actual reasons to unban Baton, feel free to PM me and I'll discuss the matter with you.

I guess no one can provide him with reasons to unban him, or not? We already have given reasons.
Feel free to leave the forum kudayta!
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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby Endless » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:20 pm

Forever Young wrote:
Baton will not be unbanned. No one has provided me with any reasons to unban Baton, despite asking several times.

Since this is just a continuation of the previous locked thread, I'll be locking this one as well. If anyone comes up with any actual reasons to unban Baton, feel free to PM me and I'll discuss the matter with you.


I guess no one can provide him with reasons to unban him, or not? We already have given reasons.
Feel free to leave the forum kudayta!


I'll try to view this as an outside-unbiased opinion. What the moderators are looking for are actual facts, not emotion. They don't need things like, "Our reason is because we want him back!" or "We are in majority to have him back."

They need actual facts. Hell I think a sincere apology may help a lot. To answer your grief about the apology, since he obviously cannot do it on here, have him apologize to either Vic, Laika, or Kudayta in a game lobby. They can take screenshots and share it amongst themselves. They don't need to share amongst you, and you guys don't need him to apologize to you or to post screenshots.

If he does that, and they decide to unban him, it needs to be his last chance. You guys need to understand that as well. No more outbursts. No more character insults. None. One strike, and he's permabanned.

I think that is very reasonable, no?
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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby Forever Young » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:53 am

He is not a judge for us anymore.
And it is not only the banning.
We do not trust him after all these deprivations of liberty.
Maybe that is why nobody want to discuss with him.
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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby Endless » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:21 am

If you want to be like that, then let him be banned.
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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby LadySnowhitepink » Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:34 pm

things are not good like that. to close a thread cause its getting uncomfortable isn´t a solution which show a wise moderation.
a moderator have to provide the base for discussions and to lead if there a need or to decrease a discussion if its getting to wild.
but in any case the moderator should support discussions.
what happen here is to close to close to close, to lessen, to cut discussions even persons are still active on it.
it make members getting upset without understanding and finaly to leave.
it create a ambiente of to be not wellcome.

that has to change
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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby Endless » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:51 pm

LadySnowhitepink wrote:things are not good like that. to close a thread cause its getting uncomfortable isn´t a solution which show a wise moderation.
a moderator have to provide the base for discussions and to lead if there a need or to decrease a discussion if its getting to wild.
but in any case the moderator should support discussions.
what happen here is to close to close to close, to lessen, to cut discussions even persons are still active on it.
it make members getting upset without understanding and finaly to leave.
it create a ambiente of to be not wellcome.

that has to change


Do any of you have moderator experience?
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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby jelco » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:13 am

Although I've been inactive for a while, as a moderator I feel the need to throw in my 2 cents.

For years the forums have been moderated in a fashion of minimum effort, with pretty much all major action such as topic deletion/locking and user banning being motivated by spamming, warez or anything else that clearly has no place on this forum content-wise. I can also recall at least one case of a user spinning into such excessive abuse that he got himself banned (names are withheld to protect the stupid) but that was after repeated warnings during a prolongued period of weeks that he set out to not just derail topics and flame others but descend into pure abuse on both the forums and other IV-related community platforms. A third case (mostly pertaining to topic locking) is limited to bug reporting forums, where occasionally people (including yours truly) set out to arrange the chaos into something slightly more orderly. This, however, is where the forums are not really used as a traditional BB so it's hardly applicable to the forums as a whole; I included it to show just how particular the circumstances have to be for the moderators to feel like stepping in.

Having said that, the Defcon forums suffer from a reputation problem. With all due respect to the therein active community members, it is really a separate part of the forums and one that I have always been very clear about not setting foot in as a moderator because I don't feel the slightest bit motivated to dig through some of the bullshit that happens over there (admittedly I'm not being overly objective here, but to be fair what you are reporting here is precisely the kind of stuff that many feel could only happen in the Defcon forums). I mostly felt comfortable stating this disposition because there were some other moderators around at that time who happened to be active Defcon players and so were visting the Defcon forums regularly anyway. Over the years they (like me) gradually phased out their activity over here so there was a need for new moderators, and the combination of the forums reputation and the fact that it is a very active community on its own, preference has in recent years gone to forum-specific moderators picked from those same forums rather than (like bert and I are) general moderators.

The fact that I have rarely set foot in the Defcon forums post-beta also means I have difficulty assessing the situation and judging who or what is behaving unfair. Since the Defcon forums are really regarded as a quite separate part of the forums, with their own active core that has very little overlap with the rest of the forums (indeed, Defcon's target audience has very little overlap with IV's traditional target audiences), I would not be surprised if it needs a bit of a departure from the traditional laissez-faire mentality that we use in the other parts of the forums. The Defcon crowd simply has more problems with pouting abusive teenagers than e.g. Uplink and Multiwinia, and it has a slight tendency to take the self-ruling part to the more negative side of anarchy. Even then, though, user bans should still be considered a last resort, only ever used when well-founded and most of all discussed with other moderators before execution (and if a user is a repeat offender, every single ban should be proposed anew for discussion within the moderator team). Such a mentality would prevent situations such as this where a moderator is being accused of partiality: either the ban is not executed because no moderators agree, in which case the community is left to its own devices to handle the situation, or the ban is executed but there is a clear signal that multiple moderators agree so there is no reason to assume there were 'unprofessional' reasons.

Now.

With this Introversion Moderating 101 in the back of our heads, I think the stuff that is being said here should at least require an objective third-party look. Again, I'm considering two potential outcomes: either someone has been abusing moderating powers and that needs to be addressed, or the moderation is considered justified but the community needs to be given better justification for it.

My personal recommendation is that you try to put together a timeline of how events unfolded (with links to topics in question) and send them to one of the ohter moderators. Initially I would advise you to contact one of the more active moderators (I've been away for a while so am even less informed about the state of affairs Defcon-wise than usual) but if all else fails, feel free to send me a PM and I will look it over (and if I think there's enough in there to take action, I'll discuss that with the other moderators and admins).

Jelco
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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby (MOR) » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:29 am

Thank you for your precious comment.
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Re: Defcon forum needs help! Mark and Chris pls help us!

Postby Zorotama » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:11 am

Hard to give you the links when the moderator deletes a part of the discussion. We have what he wanted to save.

Edit: it's a long story, started months ago, located in many threads (some locked, some censored or modified, some deleted)..anyway I will try to send you the links as elements for a recognization.

But the central thing is that I lost my trust on kudayta, he become a problem instead of a solution.

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