Multiwinia: PC Beta goes Live!

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Postby Feud » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:19 pm

onigami wrote:
My question is, why the hell is a porting house doing this? Why can't Introversion do the Mac version in-house? I seriously would like to know what Apple is doing to prevent this, because I sincerely don't believe that Introversion is doing anything wrong on their end.


Maybe it is because IV is a small company, and by outsourcing they can get the work done faster, at a lower price, and with less financial risk to themselves. It seems like a win/win situation for everyone, so I don't know why you are getting upset.
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Postby NeoThermic » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:30 pm

Actually John ports the games to the Mac. Since Ambrosia will add their own copy protection and publish the game on the Apple platform for IV, they will also run the beta testing. Logical.

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Postby xander » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:35 pm

onigami wrote:
xander wrote:
skull13 wrote:So, mac beta occurs on the Ambrosia side? thats... great.

****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! @$^&^!!!!

In all likelihood, the Mac beta will take place on the ASW side in a month or four (or more). However, if you have an Intel machine, and a copy of XP lying around, you can try applying to the beta with that. I did. ;)

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My question is, why the hell is a porting house doing this? Why can't Introversion do the Mac version in-house? I seriously would like to know what Apple is doing to prevent this, because I sincerely don't believe that Introversion is doing anything wrong on their end.


First off, Ambrosia Software is not a "porting house." Most of the games that they publish were original Mac games, many of which do not have Windows counterparts (the first two EV games, Maelstrom, Gooball, Deimos Rising, &c. -- just to name a few). In fact, right off the top of my head, I can only think of one Ambrosia game, other than IV's games, that was originally a Windows game -- Aquaria (which isn't even out yet for the Mac). Furthermore, Ambrosia is a publisher more than a developer. While there are developers that work for Ambrosia, most of their time is spent working on utilities.

Now, as to why IV are working with Ambrosia to port Multiwinia. I can think of several reasons. First, IV and Ambrosia have a long history (long by software industry standards, anyway). Ambrosia published the Mac version of Uplink, published and aided in the port of Darwinia, and published and ported DEFCON. Ambrosia has helped with the ports, I assume, because IV does not have the resources to hire a full-time Mac developer to port the software themselves. I assume that IV are publishing through Ambrosia (rather than some other publisher) because Ambrosia is a well recognized name in the Mac world, and generally stands for high quality.

As to your comment about Apple, what the fuck are you talking about? Apple has nothing to do with whether or not IV and ASW work together to publish a game.

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Postby Feud » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:04 pm

Please xander, tell us how you really feel. :D
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Postby xander » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:23 am

Feud wrote:Please xander, tell us how you really feel. :D

Oh, the above is restrained. I was attempting to be somewhat civil.

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Postby onigami » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:01 am

xander wrote:
onigami wrote:
xander wrote:
skull13 wrote:So, mac beta occurs on the Ambrosia side? thats... great.

****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! @$^&^!!!!

In all likelihood, the Mac beta will take place on the ASW side in a month or four (or more). However, if you have an Intel machine, and a copy of XP lying around, you can try applying to the beta with that. I did. ;)

xander


My question is, why the hell is a porting house doing this? Why can't Introversion do the Mac version in-house? I seriously would like to know what Apple is doing to prevent this, because I sincerely don't believe that Introversion is doing anything wrong on their end.


First off, Ambrosia Software is not a "porting house." Most of the games that they publish were original Mac games, many of which do not have Windows counterparts (the first two EV games, Maelstrom, Gooball, Deimos Rising, &c. -- just to name a few). In fact, right off the top of my head, I can only think of one Ambrosia game, other than IV's games, that was originally a Windows game -- Aquaria (which isn't even out yet for the Mac). Furthermore, Ambrosia is a publisher more than a developer. While there are developers that work for Ambrosia, most of their time is spent working on utilities.

Now, as to why IV are working with Ambrosia to port Multiwinia. I can think of several reasons. First, IV and Ambrosia have a long history (long by software industry standards, anyway). Ambrosia published the Mac version of Uplink, published and aided in the port of Darwinia, and published and ported DEFCON. Ambrosia has helped with the ports, I assume, because IV does not have the resources to hire a full-time Mac developer to port the software themselves. I assume that IV are publishing through Ambrosia (rather than some other publisher) because Ambrosia is a well recognized name in the Mac world, and generally stands for high quality.

As to your comment about Apple, what the fuck are you talking about? Apple has nothing to do with whether or not IV and ASW work together to publish a game.

xander


OK, I may be wrong about Ambrosia (no need to get your knickers in a twist about that). But my beef with Apple is that if you look at most, if not almost all the games coming from PC to Mac, they are coming from porting houses and not the original devs/publishers themselves. This creates a limitation on what can be played on Macs, because a porting house can only do so much with staff and budget. The original reasoning for it, an incompatibility with the PowerPC platform, is now erased due to the incorporation of x86 processors. A lot of the other reasons that held itself up originally (market share, OS incompatibilities) are starting to decay, especially since now Apple is the #2 comp manufacturer, and OS X has a 20% share of the market now (which is nothing to sneeze at). Further, when you look at the money dropped on porting a game from console to console (which is a beast in comparison to OS porting), it's not like the major publishers aren't strapped for cash when it comes to porting something like that. Further, the Mac OS X computer platform has a much smaller range of products to test, making QA and beta testing much simpler. So, tell me, what exactly gives that publishers besides EA and Blizzard aren't knocking on Apple's door?

I haven't been entirely certain, but something tells me through what Valve's Gabe Newell said about the Steam platform never coming to OS X that Apple has a lot to do with it. For starters, let's look at the product mentality on most of these comps: WYSIWYG. A fine idea, lowers costs, except that with gamers it means that two years down the line a comp won't work with a specific game because, say, the graphics card isn't good for it, and you can't effectively replace it. There was a recent controversy involving the new edition Mac Pros, in which the nVidia 8800 GT was available not only to new edition Mac Pros, but also available in an "upgrade kit" form for older Intel Mac Pros. Except that upgrade kit didn't work initially, causing censorship on the Apple forums (which they've been doing a lot of lately), and a well-crafted but nasty letter to El Jobso that he actually responded to. This never would have been an issue if nVidia and AMD/ATI spent a little money (prolly less money than making these OEM cards) creating Mac variants of the ForceWare and Catalyst drivers, respectively. So why don't they? Because then on Apple's end, they would have to suck up and deal with tech issues on their end that they're not willing to spend money on.

Furthermore, there is a quality control/approval issue that Apple is zealous about. You may have noted this with the whole iPhone SDK fiasco, in which all products from the SDK can only work with Apple's approval, literally. Same thing is applicable to OS X, though. Before anything gets sold as an OS X product, a licensing fee has to be paid, and some "quality control" testing needs to be done for it. Considering the upgrade period between OS X versions are relatively short (at least, in comparison to, say, Windows), this doesn't give developers a lot of time to make sure the current OS X works with their product. DigiDesign is one example: As of 5 months since Leopard's release, ProTools is only compatible with Leopard on the HD version, version 7.4, on the "current 8-core Mac Pros" (their words, not mine). Considering that last part is new, this makes ProTools only available to a few hundred out of tens of thousands of ProTools customers from HD to M-Powered. It took a several weeks for Adobe to make CS3 work with Leopard, and I think CS2 and CS still don't work.

Finally, OS X doesn't have its own gaming API or middleware platform for which devs can work with to port easily and effectively without going through hoops. The majority of all PC games run on the DirectX API, with very few games per year being compatible with the OpenGL and OpenAL standards that Apple supports. This makes porting unnecessarily more difficult and tedious than it should be. Apple releasing a variant of DirectX, an OS X form of gaming API, or even an official middleware platform ala Cider that allows some degree of DirectX compatibility would resolve this problem, effectively reducing the gap to at most a month between releases.

By no means were my words vindicative of IV's decision on the Mac port, nor of Ambrosia's capability to port. My words were against Apple, because there is something seriously fucked-up about how they approach games. It is almost like Apple before had poked the platform with a stick to confirm its gaming capabilities. The deal with EA and the creation of the Cider middleware platform are steps in the right direction, but Apple has to address some its own issues before it can be taken seriously on the matter of games.

Note: I'm aware that Steam is a platform very similar to iTunes (at least initially, it has become quite a bit more than that since), and will probably become a competitor of iTunes if the rumors about the ability to buy movies holds. So there is perhaps a degree of bias involved in what Newell said. That said, what Valve lacks in financial capital (in comparison to the major publishers) it makes up in influence. Every major American publisher except EA has their stuff on Steam, and EA itself serves as the retail distributor of Valve's products. Every IV product is on Steam. Valve is very powerful in this regard. So Gabe Newell's words should not be taken lightly.
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Postby KingAl » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:38 am

While Apple may not be the most accommodating company, the problems that Valve has had are pretty irrelevant in this case. IV just isn't in a position to port, test and support the Mac versions of their games, so they 'delegate' it to Ambrosia. All IV games have been rendered using OpenGL, the Darwinia 'Vista patch' being the only exception. The other game ported from Windows which Ambrosia is publishing, Aquaria, is also an OpenGL game, and is being ported by the original programmer. There's just a convenience in having another company dealing with Mac version support/promotion etc.
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Postby Feud » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:10 am

So, tell me, what exactly gives that publishers besides EA and Blizzard aren't knocking on Apple's door?


Simple, all successful businesses operate on a simple cost/benefit ratio. When the benefits outweigh the costs (which include not just time and money but also hassle) then they proceed. Let's not forget about supply and demand, were there a greater demand by Apple users for games then people would provide them.

You seem very upset at Apple for the actions (or lack thereof) of others. Perhaps Apple has decided that of all the features, reasons, and abilities that drive someone to purchase an Apple over a PC, that gaming is fairly low on the list, and they have designed their products accordingly.

Personally, complaining about the lack of games for Apple is akin to complaining that the engine for one's Prius doesn't rumble. It seems that those who make such complaints really missed the boat on what the product was intended to do.
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Postby prophile » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:12 pm

OK, I may be wrong about Ambrosia (no need to get your knickers in a twist about that). But my beef with Apple is that if you look at most, if not almost all the games coming from PC to Mac, they are coming from porting houses and not the original devs/publishers themselves. This creates a limitation on what can be played on Macs, because a porting house can only do so much with staff and budget. The original reasoning for it, an incompatibility with the PowerPC platform, is now erased due to the incorporation of x86 processors. A lot of the other reasons that held itself up originally (market share, OS incompatibilities) are starting to decay, especially since now Apple is the #2 comp manufacturer, and OS X has a 20% share of the market now (which is nothing to sneeze at). Further, when you look at the money dropped on porting a game from console to console (which is a beast in comparison to OS porting), it's not like the major publishers aren't strapped for cash when it comes to porting something like that. Further, the Mac OS X computer platform has a much smaller range of products to test, making QA and beta testing much simpler. So, tell me, what exactly gives that publishers besides EA and Blizzard aren't knocking on Apple's door?


You're the one who kicked up a stink about this to start with. Right: first off, what exactly do you mean by 'porting houses'? I can't think of ANY games brought over to Mac which have been ported by an external company, even IV's games are ported in-house by John and published through Ambrosia. The whole PowerPC/x86 issue is bollocks anyway, people should design with endian issues in mind from the start for easier porting. To your last port, they're both publishing games on OS X, Blizzard has done since the original Warcraft I believe. A long time, anyway.

I haven't been entirely certain, but something tells me through what Valve's Gabe Newell said about the Steam platform never coming to OS X that Apple has a lot to do with it. For starters, let's look at the product mentality on most of these comps: WYSIWYG. A fine idea, lowers costs, except that with gamers it means that two years down the line a comp won't work with a specific game because, say, the graphics card isn't good for it, and you can't effectively replace it. There was a recent controversy involving the new edition Mac Pros, in which the nVidia 8800 GT was available not only to new edition Mac Pros, but also available in an "upgrade kit" form for older Intel Mac Pros. Except that upgrade kit didn't work initially, causing censorship on the Apple forums (which they've been doing a lot of lately), and a well-crafted but nasty letter to El Jobso that he actually responded to. This never would have been an issue if nVidia and AMD/ATI spent a little money (prolly less money than making these OEM cards) creating Mac variants of the ForceWare and Catalyst drivers, respectively. So why don't they? Because then on Apple's end, they would have to suck up and deal with tech issues on their end that they're not willing to spend money on.


Yeah, it's slightly annoying that we can't swap in new GPUs easily, but it's not a big deal really. If things like IV's games didn't use immediate mode (*glare*) they'd run fine on older machines, and even top GPU-intensive games can have fallbacks to lower quality.

Furthermore, there is a quality control/approval issue that Apple is zealous about. You may have noted this with the whole iPhone SDK fiasco, in which all products from the SDK can only work with Apple's approval, literally. Same thing is applicable to OS X, though. Before anything gets sold as an OS X product, a licensing fee has to be paid, and some "quality control" testing needs to be done for it. Considering the upgrade period between OS X versions are relatively short (at least, in comparison to, say, Windows), this doesn't give developers a lot of time to make sure the current OS X works with their product. DigiDesign is one example: As of 5 months since Leopard's release, ProTools is only compatible with Leopard on the HD version, version 7.4, on the "current 8-core Mac Pros" (their words, not mine). Considering that last part is new, this makes ProTools only available to a few hundred out of tens of thousands of ProTools customers from HD to M-Powered. It took a several weeks for Adobe to make CS3 work with Leopard, and I think CS2 and CS still don't work.


Do not touch the Digidesign issue, I might be forced to visit you and stab you in the face. I am seriously pissed at them now with the Leopard thing because I was told by one of their representatives, in person, that Leopard compatibility would be ready by December 2007. It's bullshit.

People who don't do screwy things with the system in their apps, however (ie, 99% of developers) have compatibility straight off the bat. Oh, also:

Before anything gets sold as an OS X product, a licensing fee has to be paid, and some "quality control" testing needs to be done for it.


Bullshit.

Finally, OS X doesn't have its own gaming API or middleware platform for which devs can work with to port easily and effectively without going through hoops. The majority of all PC games run on the DirectX API, with very few games per year being compatible with the OpenGL and OpenAL standards that Apple supports. This makes porting unnecessarily more difficult and tedious than it should be. Apple releasing a variant of DirectX, an OS X form of gaming API, or even an official middleware platform ala Cider that allows some degree of DirectX compatibility would resolve this problem, effectively reducing the gap to at most a month between releases.


DirectX is a boil on the arse of humanity and should have died out like the piece of crap that it is about 10 years ago. People should be using OpenGL and OpenAL from the get-go, and they should certainly be abstracting their rendering enough that it's possible to swap between the two relatively easily. Seriously, folks, writing a GLSL->HLSL convertor isn't that difficult. It's the developers themselves that are responsible for this.

By no means were my words vindicative of IV's decision on the Mac port, nor of Ambrosia's capability to port. My words were against Apple, because there is something seriously fucked-up about how they approach games. It is almost like Apple before had poked the platform with a stick to confirm its gaming capabilities. The deal with EA and the creation of the Cider middleware platform are steps in the right direction, but Apple has to address some its own issues before it can be taken seriously on the matter of games.


Funny how John Carmack has always supported OS X, then.
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However, Feud has a point

Postby Ace Rimmer » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:48 pm

To all, tl;dr.
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Postby onigami » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:00 pm

prophile wrote:You're the one who kicked up a stink about this to start with. Right: first off, what exactly do you mean by 'porting houses'? I can't think of ANY games brought over to Mac which have been ported by an external company, even IV's games are ported in-house by John and published through Ambrosia. The whole PowerPC/x86 issue is bollocks anyway, people should design with endian issues in mind from the start for easier porting. To your last port, they're both publishing games on OS X, Blizzard has done since the original Warcraft I believe. A long time, anyway.


Practically every best-selling PC game prior to the EA deal (exceptions being Blizzard's works) has been ported to Mac by Aspyr, MacSoft, Feral, and the like (I'm surprised you don't notice this fact). Lesser games are disregarded. Those are what I meant by porting houses. Also, utter bull on the whole "they should design with endian issues from the start" idea, because clearly you don't know what your priorities are. That's like building a house and dealing with the driveway first. And what I meant by that last sentence was why the major publishers besides EA and Blizzard AREN'T cashing in on Apple. Somebody else understood that initially, dunno how you got your interpretation.

Do not touch the Digidesign issue, I might be forced to visit you and stab you in the face. I am seriously pissed at them now with the Leopard thing because I was told by one of their representatives, in person, that Leopard compatibility would be ready by December 2007. It's bullshit.


Hey, I'm just as pissed at them...but don't you think a little bizarre that HD 7.4 is only compatible with the 8-cores (not even earlier Mac Pros)? Digidesign/Avid can be assholes, but they're not THAT arrogant.

People who don't do screwy things with the system in their apps, however (ie, 99% of developers) have compatibility straight off the bat.


There were quite a few problems from the first few weeks, at least on Adobe's end, from what I can tell.

Before anything gets sold as an OS X product, a licensing fee has to be paid, and some "quality control" testing needs to be done for it.


Bullshit.


I've seen it. That's what inspired the iPhone SDK model.

Funny how John Carmack has always supported OS X, then.


John Carmack supports the open source movement. I do remember him having some support for OS X, but I wouldn't be surprised if, after Darwin's closing some of its code to the public, he might have changed his mind.


To IV: Sorry about this. I didn't mean for my words to turn out an Apple flame war. This was your news post anyway. I'm going to stop here. Sorry! :oops:
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Postby Pox » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:01 am

Before anything gets sold as an OS X product, a licensing fee has to be paid, and some "quality control" testing needs to be done for it.


Bullshit.


I've seen it. That's what inspired the iPhone SDK model.


... An "OS X Product" is simply something that runs on OSX... and you certainly don't have to get any kind of certification from Apple to sell a product on the platform.
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Postby Leonaken » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:18 am

How did I miss this?! God I'm not paying attention to these boards enough anymore.
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Postby Verlustmeldung3 » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:39 am

what about an darwinia mmorpg after multiwinia is finished? :)

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Postby vanarbulax » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:43 am

A Darwinia MahmorPuger, that would be awesome I could see it now:

Full customize your character thousands of colours to choose from with the amazing RGB slider interface. (Premium members only. Normal membership has green, red, yellow and blue)

Research in multiple technologies including laser grenade and one more! (Grenades premium members only)

Realistic grenade evasion technology.(Warning may impede ability to your avatar in any coherent way)

Interlinked and dynamic economy and creature/player regeneration systems.(Non-premium members cannot use incubators, limit of 5 souls per non-premium member)

Multiple enemies with separate programed altitude affinities.(Non premium members cannot encounter soul destroyers or spiders)

More than one cat sound!(For premium members)

On a more serious note I would love to play an MMO with such an original universe as Darwinia's. That's why I'm egerly waiting to see how Love will turn out.[/url]

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